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Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

Townman
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

Quote from: David
Phil in support applied a credit to my account, the ticket ref is #72853538 as the value for this was always 0.0p instead of 75p.

Scott,
From a business point of view, the above presents an interesting case for your clean-up testing.  Will the payment correction scripts detect and adjust for manual correction credits (as noted here by David) or will PN (understandably) consider the cost of doing so to be more than the benefit (to PN), with the consequential bonus to users like David of them getting a double-bubble benefit out of the protracted rectification?  Cheesy Grin
Cheers,
Kevin

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ScottStorey
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

As promised elsewhere I said I would put an update today (although a bit later than I initially indicated, fell asleep after my shift on the maintenance last night).
Apologies in advance, might be a bit of a long one.
So first off, Kevins 5 questions
Quote from: Townman
1. Zero value tokens on essential products - fix in progress, release forecast Jan 2014
2. Database token values are wrong
3. Token values displayed on the referral page do not reflect those in the data base
4. The product of token values and number of payments in some circumstances do not match the displayed total payment value
5. Month to month total referral value changes by inexplicable amounts

1) Correct - Still planning on January, but as mentioned previously. Hopefully before christmas.
2) Yup - These will be the next things to be addressed after the zero value. Nothing difficult, just a tedious task going through and checking them all. I'd say this should probably be done in January as well. As it's a simple fix I might switch to being the developer on those and get somebody else to test.
3) Yes - Assuming you mean this page - http://www.plus.net/support/tools/referrals/referrals_discount_info.shtml . Currently waiting on our business analysts to confirm what they should all show and something I'm pestering them about daily. Once we have the values it's something that needs to will be fixed ASAP as we can't have incorrect info on the site.
4 & 5) Hopefully once the database values are cleaned up this will fix itself. If not we will be able to see clearer what is causing it. At the moment there are that many things going on it's difficult to isolate the cause. Don't have an ETA on this, there will be a period of monitoring after the token values are all fixed to see what happens.
Quote from: Townman
I think you would agree that the issues surrounding referrals is a bigger monster than has been previously perceived and proberly needs some additional tasks scheduling as you hinted previously.

Yes, definitely! The most likely ones to need additional tasks raising will be 4 & 5 mentioned above.
Quote from: I
I would have a guess that the 0.00 value for the current unlimited plan is only showing on referrals  that were done after the (very sneaky change by PN) value change from 75 to 50p?

Quote from: David
Morning Scott/Mike,
This was the unlimited broadband and the lady who took it out is still on the same package, as I set it up for her, and help her with her computer fairly regularly. She hasn't changed from her original package, I appreciate if she does it would drop to 50p.
Phil in support applied a credit to my account, the ticket ref is #72853538 as the value for this was always 0.0p instead of 75p.
I'd be a bit miffed if it wasn't reapplied at 75p once the referrals problem is sorted as this error was at PN's end.
Mike, the 0.0p value of one of my referrals was a 75p one, this is why I imagine it will be reinstated at 50p once they fix the problem.
The line moved over to PN on the 21/6/13 and unlimited broadband was still paying 75p at this time.
Cheers,
David

Lumping these two together as they are both related to the 50p & 75p values for unlimited. This is something I've been having a hunt around and I can't find any documentation internally that refers to us having a change of values from 75p to 50p. The only documentation I can find relates to unlimited being a 75p referral. That isn't to say there wasn't a change, I just can't find any evidence of us doing it intentionally.
I've queried this with the business analysts and I'm awaiting a reply on what the value should be and what it should say on the website (as per number 3 above). It's something I keep chasing daily as it's the main thing currently blocking our work on referrals. My gut feeling is that somebody has updated the referrals page and copy and pasted a wrong value in and it should say 75p, all the information so far seems to support that theory. Just need confirmation from the BAs.
As I side note, if it was meant to be 75p all along and never changed (despite what the site says), it makes our clean-up a bit easier as we don't have to deal with token values changing before/after a certain date. Which brings us nicely on to....
Quote from: Townman
Scott,
From a business point of view, the above presents an interesting case for your clean-up testing.  Will the payment correction scripts detect and adjust for manual correction credits (as noted here by David) or will PN (understandably) consider the cost of doing so to be more than the benefit (to PN), with the consequential bonus to users like David of them getting a double-bubble benefit out of the protracted rectification?  Cheesy Grin
Cheers,
Kevin

I wondered how long before somebody would pick up on this! This is a discussion that has been going on for a while with myself and the developer.
In all honesty, it looks like there won't be a way of us sorting out who has had a manual refund by CSC and who hasn't. There isn't anything to say that it was specifically a refund done for unpaid referrals. The only thing we could go off would be looking for accounts affected by the token issue and have a manual refund in the past X months that is a multiple of 75p.
If that brought back a reasonable number (for arguments sake, lets say 10), we would be able to go through them manually so there wasn't a double-bubble benefit. If it brought back an unreasonable number (again, for arguments sake, lets say 1000) we would need to figure out a way that we could automate the process.
Realistically, it's probably going to be a double-bubble benefit. It will probably be cheaper to do that than it would cost in development to make sure people weren't credited twice. We just need to get a rough indication of how many are affected by that and get the appropriate people to give it the OK.
Finally, anything that I've missed off or not made clear?
dsw
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

Yes. Why are some people getting manual refunds from CSC? I've asked, a few times, and each time been refused. Am I not important enough or something?
Townman
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

Quote from: Scott
Quote from: Townman
3. Token values displayed on the referral page do not reflect those in the data base

3) Yes - Assuming you mean this page - http://www.plus.net/support/tools/referrals/referrals_discount_info.shtml . Currently waiting on our business analysts to confirm what they should all show and something I'm pestering them about daily. Once we have the values it's something that needs to will be fixed ASAP as we can't have incorrect info on the site.

Scott,
Thank you for the full and frank responses - honest recognition is heart warming.
In reference to the specific item above, your assumption is not correct.  Somewhere along the way, I had understood you to say that my odd payment values arise from a token value in the database being 59p.  My observation was that in the list of my current referrals, there is no token having a value of 59p.  Possibly I'm jumping to conclusions here - there is a 60p token shown in my current referrals, which has generated a total credit value of £21.08 from 45 tokens presently at 60p.  There is no product with a 60p referral value.  Is it possible that the my current referrals web page is rounding database values?
I also note that for the sth****** 'value' account the product of token count and value does not equate to the value of total credit.  It looks as though 19 tokens have not been applied, however I recognise that where a referral has changed products, the data reported on the current referrals page could be ambiguous.
As for the double-bubble matters - sorry for asking the hard and difficult questions.  It's a tough job, but sometimes it just has to be done!
Quote from: dsw
Yes. Why are some people getting manual refunds from CSC? I've asked, a few times, and each time been refused. Am I not important enough or something?

I'd not personalise this in the way you have done so.  This is clearly a complex matter.  I have been convinced for years (but especially since I took out LSR two years ago and my referral value exceeded my subscription) that all is not well with the calculations.  The more recent zero value tokens has not helped, but there seems to be other issues in the wood work as well.  I have made numerous attempts to get my referrals corrected, but repeatedly I'd been advised that all is well.  Whether one does or does not get a credit in such situations is I suggest down to that particular CSC agent recognising an issue and 'correcting' it or just agreeing with you and raising the credit regardless.  Clearly there is not a consistent approach from the CSC.
I am sure that Scott will get this fixed - when I guess depends on what else is burning the house down.
Cheers,
Kevin

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ScottStorey
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

Ahhh OK Kevin.
I lumped that 59p value in with point 2 as it's a value that is clearly wrong, since there is no 59p value in existence!
You could be right about the rounding on the website, although it doesn't make sense for it to do any rounding in all honesty.
With regards to the CSC refunding in some instances and not others, there does need to be some more consistency and I will pass that on to the digicare guys as they are in a better position to get that sorted than myself.
ScottStorey
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

Just a quick update as I got somewhere with the 50p v 75p.
Its been confirmed that the website is correct and unlimited is 50p on ADSL residential and 75p on FTTC residential.
Don't shoot the messenger!
I've tried to anticipate the obvious questions:
When did the change happen?
Not sure yet. It was my first question when I found out. Awaiting an answer on this as it will affect the clean up
Why weren't we informed when it changed?
Again, waiting on this and chasing in the morning.
For both of these the digicare guys again may be the best people to post a response but I've yet to have that conversation.
So a summary of what the info means, when the fix goes out all future tokens will be generated as per the website.
For past ones it will depend on the date of the token, that date remains to be confirmed.

RobPN
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

Quote from: Scott
Just a quick update as I got somewhere with the 50p v 75p.
Its been confirmed that the website is correct and unlimited is 50p on ADSL residential and 75p on FTTC residential.

Confirmed by who?  The website stated 75p as the referral value for residential ADSL Unlimited from the time the (new) product was launched in December 2012.  The value actually paid was also 75p and remains at 75p at least for the referrals on my account which haven't been messed up.
Quote from: Scott

I've tried to anticipate the obvious questions:
When did the change happen?
Not sure yet. It was my first question when I found out. Awaiting an answer on this as it will affect the clean up
Why weren't we informed when it changed?
Again, waiting on this and chasing in the morning.
For both of these the digicare guys again may be the best people to post a response but I've yet to have that conversation.

I've already asked when the change happened several times in various threads but not got an answer yet.  My guess is the answer to both the above questions is when and because PlusNet realised that they were selling the product (IMHO) at such ridiculously low, probably unsustainable prices, to new customers and to retain old customers who were thinking of leaving, and that paying 75p as a referral value was seriously impacting on their margins for that account type/price, so the change was sneaked in unannounced.
Quote from: Scott

So a summary of what the info means, when the fix goes out all future tokens will be generated as per the website.
For past ones it will depend on the date of the token, that date remains to be confirmed.

As no official announcement was made regarding lowering of the value from 75p to 50p, wouldn't it be fairer to make such an announcement before lowering peoples expectations?
i.e. for referrals which have already been made or referred accounts which have changed from another product to residential ADSL Unlimited prior to the yet-to-be-fixed glitch/es being repaired?
gofaster
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

... I love the "whooshing" sound they make as they fly by ....
DNA
ScottStorey
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

It was confirmed by our Business Analysts, as you can probably guess from the time I made the post I got that through just as the day was finishing.
I've done some further digging after getting the information and have found what has happened.
We have two pages that mention the referral values.
https://portal.plus.net/home-broadband/referrals/
https://portal.plus.net/support/tools/referrals/referrals_discount_info.shtml
The first link is the new site layout that was launched with the new unlimited products last year. That has always shown the referral value for this new product as 50p. - http://web.archive.org/web/20130127021242/https://portal.plus.net/home-broadband/referrals/ is the earliest back that I can find archived and is about a month after the product was launched.
The second link is the old site layout and that page simply got missed when the products changed. Problem 76826 got raised for that and the fix went out  2 months ago. That updated the page from 75p to 50p.
So the value has always been 50p for the new unlimited product, just an old page was not updated when it should have been.
Hopefully that clears up what has happened with the 75p v 50p and shows it was just an honest mistake that one page was missed rather than anything to do with "unsustainable prices" as you suggested.
ITWorks
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

Hi Scott,
Thanks for you input.
Will PN be honoring the 75p referral that customers have and continue to get the on the new unlimited product?
When was the database updated to reflect the change from 75 to 50p, was it at the same time problem 76826 was fixed?
Regards
Mike

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ScottStorey
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

I've got a meeting tomorrow about that exact subject.
Finalising all the details with the responsible person so everything will be set in stone.
RobPN
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

Quote from: Scott

The second link is the old site layout and that page simply got missed when the products changed. Problem 76826 got raised for that and the fix went out  2 months ago. That updated the page from 75p to 50p.
So the value has always been 50p for the new unlimited product, just an old page was not updated when it should have been.
Hopefully that clears up what has happened with the 75p v 50p and shows it was just an honest mistake that one page was missed rather than anything to do with "unsustainable prices" as you suggested.

I, for one, am not entirely convinced by your explanation Scott.
What about this archived page from 1 May 2013 which clearly states Residential Referral Value for ADSL Unlimited as 75p ?
Or this one from 18 August 2013 which shows the same?
OK, those links just refer to further archives of the same page, but if, as you say, the page was not updated when it should have been, how come there are also referral values given for a product called 'Plusnet Essentials' (both ADSL and Fibre)?
Note the 's' on the end of the word 'Essentials' therefore referring to the new product which AFAIK was also announced at the same time as the new version of 'Unlimited', and thereby differentiating it from 'Plusnet Essential' (without an 's' at the end), an older product.  IMHO that shows that that page was either updated or was a new page to include the new products.
ScottStorey
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

As I say, that's the information I've had and i have a meeting in the morning to finalise everything. I do see where you are coming from though.
It might be a case it was correct at 50p, then it changed for some unknown reason to 75p and then was corrected again with the problem I referenced to 50p.
At the end of the day my department (engineering) doesn't have the final say on things like this we are just doing the digging and poking of people to try and find out what has happened and what we need to fix. The people around the business then decide or tell us what it should be and we implement it. I've been told after this process that 50p is the correct value.
I'm passing the info on as and when I get it to you guys to keep you in the loop and feeding it back in.
There are going to be some discussions internally after this as at times Ive been like a dog chasing his tail trying to figure it out! It seems like its sorted then there is something else that appears! It has admittedly all been a bit of a mess.
I'll let you know after tomorrow what the final decision on everything is.
RobPN
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

Quote from: Scott

It might be a case it was correct at 50p, then it changed for some unknown reason to 75p and then was corrected again with the problem I referenced to 50p.

Looking at the 'Fibre Unlimited' versus 'Fibre Essentials' there are referral values of 75p versus 50p.
Therefore it seems absolutely logical to me that the referral value in question was and should have been 75p otherwise there is no differential advantage in referring the 'ADSL Unlimited' over 'ADSL Essentials' (which is 50p referral value).
From my own experience, I clearly recall the referral value showing as 75p in December 2012 when the product was launched, and that was when I advised one of my referrals to change from one of the ADSL 'Value' products (where they were frequently being charged for extra usage at £5 per 5GB) to 'ADSL Unlimited'.  Their changeover took place on their next billing date in January 2013 and has earned me the sum of 75p per month from that date.
ScottStorey
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Re: Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

As promised here is the outcome of today's meeting and finalised what has happened.
The short version. Its 75p and always has been.
The long version:
December 2012 - New products launched new website has incorrect value of 50p for unlimited and old site has correct value of 75p. This should also have been paying out still
May 2013 - The zero values appear and we stop paying out. There was a change in products on the back end and how they are stored that caused this.
September 2013 - A problem is raised for incorrect values on the old site. 75p is changed to 50p as it is believed this is the correct value but it isn't.
October 2013 - Surcharge for broadband only is introduced. This involves updating products on the back end again to handle this introduction. Some more zero values are introduced.
Lots of unravelling and we've got there and hopefully the outcome you have all hoped for. We'll be double checking the period between December and May to make sure everything was paying out then.
There have been 7 other problems raised or resurrected on the back of this to fix various bits of referrals which will now get prioritised.
Updating the incorrect values on the website and getting all referrals paying out is the first priority and others around the business are deciding how to make the back payments to people.
Its also been identified where the original null values slipped through so that it doesn't happen again.
Thank you for bearing with us on this guys and your input has been invaluable in getting this resolved.