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Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

fourfourdevon
Grafter
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Quote from: Toolbox
They will not turn up at court on Monday or any other day.
ACSLaw are not due in court, its a different firm of solicitors.
But I would expect this last weeks events to feature at hearing, because I think Plusnet/BT lawyers will need to get the judges permission to appear at this part of the hearing, since at the first part of the hearing Plusnet/BT had told the court they wouldn't contest and I presume that they wouldn't turn up either, and as such will need to explain why they now want to change their minds and contest.
However, I do expect some sarcastic comments from the judge both to GM (the solicitors) and Plusnet/BT since the judge himself has been indicating that he think these orders may not be warranted.
mssystems
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Quote from: et0
Do you know it's a small fraction?  I do not.

ACS' own disclosures claim it is a small fraction.  A more circumspect consideration would lead me to an even smaller fraction.  There is nothing particularly new about the ACS scam.  It is just another numbers games, reliant on the cost of the gamble and the ignorance of the victims.  It is highly likely to follow the same general mathematical rules established by similar scams.
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It may have caused one particular Lionel Hutz type outfit some stress, that doesn't mean to say it's the magic bullet for reducing this problem.

Short of legislation there is no magic bullet as such.  There are always going to be opportunists looking to make a fast buck by inflicting misery on others.  The most effective way of stopping their toxic business practices is to set out to break the underlying business model which makes it lucrative.  Speculative invoicing is a gamble, which can be broken by increasing the 'stake' that must be invested to play the game, while simultaneously reducing the realisable return.  As I mentioned, the curves are well established.  
ISPs charging per IP processed, as they are fully entitled to, increases the investment required.  Informing potential victims of the nature of the con reduces the eventual return from it - as less people pay up.  Further, although it sounds counter intuitive, increasing the amount demanded from victims also reduces returns.  The demand has nothing to do with true cost, it is simply a figure the targets are likely to pay.  Increasing the settlement figure motivates people to investigate further, which  results in fewer people paying up when they realise the claim of prosecution is an empty threat.  Keep in mind that the nature of the evidence supporting the threat is so unreliable that ACS own legal advisers have stated it would not stand scrutiny in front a court.
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I would still feel uncomfortable with having my details "sold" in this way.
 
Under normal circumstances I would agree with you.  In this specific case I believe the alternatives are far worse.  I have no wish to finance operations like ACS:law and those that seek to copy their business model.  If the scheme is not made less lucrative while it is in it's infancy more shister lawyers will set up to copy it.  When enough of them are doing it and lobbying for the right to continue to do it, a repugnant practise may gain a false sense of legitimacy.
For the record, my details were not released by PN, I do not engage in piracy or support piracy and I have had my own intellectual property pirated in the past to the tune of several £10,000sy.    I just feel very strongly that it is the duty of those *who  know* to protect, as they may, the vulnerable who *do not know*  ACS are perverting the law in the pursuit of personal profit, a crime far, far worse than the charge they lay in front their victims.
Tidgy
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

With regards to the court hearing on Monday 4th October Gallant McMillan Solicitors will present data collecting evidence from the company called DigiRrights the “Forensic Experts” that collect IP’s.
In a quote from TorrentFreak
“DigiRights show how copyright holders can make millions from pirates in their presentation”
http://torrentfreak.com/illegal-downloads-150x-more-profitable-than-legal-sales-091009/
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The document reveals some rather shocking statistics that show how illicit downloads are more profitable than legal downloads”

The TorrentFreak report also states that DigiRights setup is similar to those at DigiProtect and Logistep. Logistep AG has been banned in several European countries already. If the monitoring is similar then I would very much like it challenged in court on Monday.
Even if DigiRights evidence does prove to be faultless I still don’t believe that the gathering of a massive amount of IP’s and sending out claims for damages should in any way be justified in court under the guise of “Anti-Piracy” when the monitoring company’s sell their work to copyright holders as revenue generating products.
TorrentFreak say:
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DRS (DigiRights) and partners are by no means interested in protecting the rights of artists or how to deter people from sharing copyrighted work, it’s a solid cash machine.

Fair? I think not. How is it that an NPO can be presented to the court under the premise that the whole procedure is there to protect the clients copyright when it is clearly not?
BT say:
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we will resist efforts to share more customer details with rights holders and those acting on their behalf until we can be sure that alleged copyright infringements have some basis and customers are treated fairly."

I look forward to Monday to see if some sort of "fairness" can be achieved.
fourfourdevon
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Quote from: Tidgy
I look forward to Monday to see if some sort of "fairness" can be achieved.
I'm now wondering if Plusnet/BT will ask for another adjournment, they've had precious little time to prepare (well thats not quite true, they've had bucket loads of time to prepare, they just chose to prepare in a matter of days since ACS:Law all blew up) will probably want more.
amuthan
Newbie
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

WHOO HOO!! PLUSNET ARE FOLLOWING TALKTALK's LEAD AND NO LONGER DEALING WITH THE LIKES OF ACS LAW RE INFRINGEMENT
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Andrew Heaney, executive director of strategy and regulation at Talk Talk, said “It’s possible for connections to be hacked by serial filesharers,” he said. “This can result in false accusations being made against subscribers, and is the key reason why we’ve refused to hand over our customers’ details to ACS:Law or any other law firm working in this way.”
(source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/8032456/ACSLaw-leak-shows-weakness-of-Digital-Economy...

Heartening to read Plusnet's statement on 29-Sept-10 echoing the same sentiments: "Due to serious concerns about the integrity of the process that is being used by rights holders, we will resist efforts to share more customer details with them and those acting on their behalf until we can be sure that alleged copyright infringements have some basis and customers are treated fairly." - Richard Fletcher, COO of Plusnet
(source: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,85908.msg744411.html#msg744411)
foxtrck
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Doesn't mean that Plusnet will discontinue dealing with these guys, just means until they have probable or more definitive cause.
The only evidence PN has logged is exactly what's been given in the first place, the IP address the time of download and the file name as well as the account holder name.
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we will resist efforts to share more customer details with them and those acting on their behalf until we can be sure that alleged copyright infringements have some basis and customers are treated fairly

As far as PN will be concerned, anyone on the list is suspected of copyright infringement anyway, 'to be sure' would involve extremely detailed evidence gathering including requesting MAC codes, wifi configurations, the number of people living in your house, how many cats or dogs you have..... It's impossible and anyway if PN are ordered by the court, they will have to give the information anyway.
Toolbox
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

All that means is Plusnet will not be sharing information with ACS Law, but do you think they will be requesting any more now?
Plusnet as far as we know at the moment will share and not contest any other firms requests for data not like TalkTalk who say they will defend every request.
But come Monday we will all know for sure what Plusnet thinks and does with customer data.

This made me laugh:
http://anonlinks.blogspot.com/2010/09/was-jesus-first-pirate.html
fourfourdevon
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

To my mind Mand made it clear Plusnet/BT will be there and contesting Mondays case, and from what I've read on Slyck you can expect a fair few press to be there too.
The press will have a thing or two to say if Plusnet/BT are not there, let alone the virtual riot this thread seems likely to erupt into.
foxtrck
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Im sure pretty soon talktalk will look at monetising this after last night's report on watchdog about their customer service and the fact they have spent too much on x-factor sponsorship.
I would go to TalkTalk, but honestly I think my unlimited package here is much better value, plus my local exchange is apparently too full for TalkTalk the last time i enquired  Shocked
I will still be complaining about PN though due to their blatant incompetence in these matters and leaking my details all over the net.
Toolbox
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Quote from: fourfourdevon
To my mind Mand made it clear Plusnet/BT will be there and contesting Mondays case, and from what I've read on Slyck you can expect a fair few press to be there too.

Can you link to the Mand post you mention.
I must have missed it.
fourfourdevon
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Yeah, Talk Talk are no consumer champions, for whatever reason though, they seem to have got the bit between their teeth over these NPO's and I suspect thats because they actually looked and thought about what they were being asked to do (I mean look at the actual data quality, and thought about the process used to discover IP addresses) and realised it was a road not only to PR disaster, and I suspect even a chance of being enjoined into court cases for lack of due care.  But that they also realised that even if somehow kept secret from the press and their forums, all it would help to do as alienate their customers from them.  How could any brand stand by and let a 3rd party who isnt even a competitor undermine your relationship with your customers.
It is for this lack of thought, and lack of care, that I am baffled and annoyed with Plusnet for.  I have no objection to them complying with court orders, and see no reason for them to protect file shares from those that seek to punish them, but as this last week has shown, for ISP's and their customers thats not whats at stake, its an issue of trust.
Mand
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Quote from: Tidgy
TorrentFreak say:
Quote
DRS (DigiRights) and partners are by no means interested in protecting the rights of artists or how to deter people from sharing copyrighted work, it’s a solid cash machine.

Fair? I think not. How is it that an NPO can be presented to the court under the premise that the whole procedure is there to protect the clients copyright when it is clearly not?

That's just TorrentFreak's opinion. Obviously that's not what the law firms say in court, or the evidence collectors say in their sales pitch.
SteveA
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Quote from: foxtrck
As far as PN will be concerned, anyone on the list is suspected of copyright infringement anyway, 'to be sure' would involve extremely detailed evidence gathering including requesting MAC codes, wifi configurations, the number of people living in your house, how many cats or dogs you have..... It's impossible and anyway if PN are ordered by the court, they will have to give the information anyway.

Actually all PN have ever seen is - as far as I'm aware  - a list of supposed IPs and Titles down loaded and times. Is there any actual proof that the original data gathering process actually is robust and that it is actually real?
Why didn't PN/BT challenge ACS:Law and other companies to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the source data is genuine?
pj27559
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Registered: ‎26-11-2007

Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Could it not be claimed that as PlusNet actually failed to provide specifically what was asked for in the court order ACS Law had no right to use the data in any case?
The raw data may have been what was requested but it was not in the format requested i.e.: "an Excel file saved in an encrypted form".
Or is it the case that ACS Law just disregard the content of their own court orders as & when it suits them?
watching
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Re: Plusnet will give your personal details to ACS Law with not informing you!!

Quote from: Mand
Quote from: Tidgy
TorrentFreak say:
Quote
DRS (DigiRights) and partners are by no means interested in protecting the rights of artists or how to deter people from sharing copyrighted work, it’s a solid cash machine.


That's just TorrentFreak's opinion. Obviously that's not what the law firms say in court, or the evidence collectors say in their sales pitch.

If that were the case it'd be all the reason for Plusnet being in court on Monday to make it known for the record.
It's worth mentioning that the evidence collectors absolutely do make it known that their process is a 'cash machine'. That's not opinion at all - a sales powerpoint presentation was leaked which clearly showed the importance of the money.
As a matter of interest Chief Master Winegarten also understands, off the record, that this is all about money. He outright stated at the November 19 NP hearing that it was 'not a moral crusade'.