Aborted installation

[#1]

I had a confirmed installation date for FTTP of 22nd December. On 4th December they wrote to me to say "The engineer appointment to install your broadband service is confirmed for 22 Dec 2025 . The engineer should arrive between *08:00 -13:00*."

On 19th December I got a mail fropm them saying "This is to confirm that your previous order is cancelled due to appointment date was not received from your end". This was clearly wrong as the date had already been agreed by me. 

I raised a complaint and they said that "Openreach have cancelled the order as you are too far from their infrastructure for Full Fibre to actually be provided."

Openreach had completed a survey and produced a plan of how they expected to serve my property. They had even marked up the ground. The plan included "90Meters duct starting at underground box outside 38 through front garden of 52 to wall of house. " I had signed the "Permission to carry out work on private property " agreement in November

Plusnet escalated to Openreach. They did another survey which came up with the same plan as before. They marked up the ground a bit more and this time it was described as "Job summary - 85m duct required from JF4 outside number 34 where CBT is to target address number 52 75m hard in footway and 10m unsurfaced (stones) at customer end ". I again signed the "Permission to carry out work on private property " agreement.

On 30th December I was given a new confirmed installation appointment of Friday 16th January.

Plusnet then told me on 6th Jan that "Openreach cannot provide FTTP on your property - Thank you for your patience and Apologies for the delay in the order, As I have checked The property is over 80 m away from the CBT and is out of policy for UG partial dig."

Despite the above, Openreach sent me a text on Friday (9th Jan) confirming my appointment.

Plusnet are refusing to budge and sent me a deadlock letter.

To be honest, I don't believe a word Plusnet are telling me. They seem totally incompetent. The Openreach website still lists my address as FTTP ready. I can't believe that Openreach would make me agree a  plan for an install that was out of policy (twice).

The Plusnet Ts & Cs do not give Plusnet any right to cancel the agreement. Indeed, given the fact that I have no right to cancel the agreement after 14 days, it would be considered an unfair contract term if Plusnet had the right to terminate.

What do I do?

[#2]

@samjwardill Unless someone comes up with a good reason why you shouldn't, personally I would be contacting the CEO of Openreach (Google for his email address) detailing all you have posted above, and ask him/his team to investigate.  

[#3]

@samjwardill 

To be honest, I don't believe a word Plusnet are telling me. They seem totally incompetent. The Openreach website still lists my address as FTTP ready.

Plusnet are merely passing on communication from Openreach!. What is likely happening here is that one part of Openreach says its possible and the other says 'No'. Its the old 'left hand, here's right hand' scenario...

I can't believe that Openreach would make me agree a  plan for an install that was out of policy (twice).

I can!

The advice from @jab1 is the best , contact the Openreach CEO

[#4]

I am reluctant to contact teh CEO of Openreach becuase my contract is with Plusnet. I realise that Openreach & Plusnet are owned by the same company.

I think that Plusnet are in breach of their terms & conditions. Openreach are a supplier to Plusnet and I have no visibility of Plusnet's agreement with Openreach.

Plusnet have made an agreement with me. They are definately not just "passing on communication from Openreach". It is up to plusnet to ensure that they fulfil the agreement that they made with me. Under their agreement, Plusnet would not allow me to cancel without penalty so why should they be able to cancel without penalty?

[#5]

I think that Plusnet are in breach of their terms & conditions

I suspect this part of the T & C's cover them

16. Our right to suspend your service or end our agreement

16.1. We can suspend or stop providing our services and/or end our agreement where:

16.1.1. our ability to continue to provide the service to you is materially and adversely affected because: (i) any of our telecommunications carrier(s) or supplier(s) ceases to provide services to us; or (ii) any authorisation required by us ends or is changed;

I am reluctant to contact teh CEO of Openreach becuase my contract is with Plusnet

Whilst I appreciate that, Plusnet are obliged (like other ISPs) to work within defined Openreach procedures.

If Openreach really are able to provide Fibre , then your quickest way to get a resolution is via the CEO. 

[#6]

LOL! It seems that "16.4 We [Plusnet] can terminate our services and/or end our agreement at any time by giving you 28 days' notice."

It seems that nobody in Plusnet Legal Team has ever heard of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. This is shocking!

[#7]

I gave/made my suggestion, based on past experience. If you don't want to pursue that suggestion, I  shall leave this discussion. 

[#8]

@samjwardill 

OR and PN may be part of the same group but OR are required to operate independantly of other group companies without showing any bias to them.

If OR can't / won't supply Full Fibre then as far as I'm aware there's nothing PN can do about it.

Emailing the OR CEO as per @jab1 is your best bet of getting an answer. Any other ISP will be in the same position as PN with regards to your property.

Brian

[#9]

Thanks @jab1 . I don't mean to offend. I am grateful for the advice.

My incredulity was aimed at Plusnet's Ts and Cs and not at the advice given. I am also grateful for the advice on the Ts and Cs too as I hadn't found that previously.

I will do as you suggest but I will also pursue via the ombudsman as I think Plusnet Ts and Cs are legally unfair and Plusnet ought to take some responsibility too.

I am shocked how poorly this process works. It is frankly appalling how openreach engages with consumers and how Plusnet washes their hands of any responsibility for their supplier.

[#10]

---

@samjwardill wrote:

LOL! It seems that "16.4 We [Plusnet] can terminate our services and/or end our agreement at any time by giving you 28 days' notice."

It seems that nobody in Plusnet Legal Team has ever heard of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. This is shocking!

---

Playing the devil’s advocate: So far you have committed to having Full Fibre installed by Openreach by giving them permission to install a duct. Granted Plusnet have requested the installation on advice from Openreach that they can provide, but that is the extent of this initial phase.
Once this is installed, Plusnet will provide an Internet service. So at present there is arguably no Plusnet service being provided. Once the infrastructure is in place and the Plusnet service starts, then cancellation by either party is subject to 28 days notice. The 14 days you are referring to relates to taking the Internet service, not the infrastructure installation.

If Openreach change their mind and inform Plusnet that they will not provide the service, then all Plusnet can do is give you a full refund.

[#11]

@Baldrick1 Plusnet terms allow customers to cancel only up to 14 days after placing the order. This expired long before Plusnet cancelled my order. The terms allow Plusnet to cancel at any time. This is the classic definition of an unfair contract term (as defined by law).

[#12]

To make this contract fair. Plusnet should only be allowed to cancel without penalty for 14 days after order placement. This would be easy to achieve and perfectly reasonable. I'm sure that Plusnet could agree with openreach that openreach only had 14 days to reject an order.

[#13]

Seems like you want to put Plusnet in the thumb screws.

• Openreach advise everyone that FTTP is available to your property
• In good faith you ask Plusnet to arrange the supply of that service
• In good faith Plusnet raises a request to have the service provided
• In good faith one bit of Openreach sends out a survey team, marks up the works, asks your permission to work
• In bad faith another bit of Openreach calls "no dice here"
• Plusnet is told service cannot be provided

What do you expect Plusnet to do here?  They cannot just go out with their of Yorkshire navvies and dig up the road and connect to Openreach's network.

If I had to make a guess about what is happening here, it would be that post survey it has been determined that the actual cost of providing a service is in excess of that listed within the Openreach price list and thus Excess Construction Charges (ECCs).  See https://d2haref.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpportal/public/images-and-documents/home/servi...

ECCs are often raised where additional infrastructure is required to:

• Provide new or extended service at a customer’s site, or at another requested location where we would otherwise not choose to extend our network based on normal commercial criteria

Is your property the last in the road - that is there would be no other user beyond your property?

This is an internal matter within Openreach and the only way this will be progressed (irrespective of your chosen ISP) is by Openreach's cage to be rattled.  As stated already, ISPs are constrained by Openreach on what cages they can rattle and when - complaints and DSO escalation initiated by ISPs are severely limited.

There are however, no constraints on you.  You can raise a complaint direct to whomever, be that the CEO of Openreach requesting DSO engagement, or indeed the CEO of BT Group to air the view that this is an utter shambles - Openreach letting down the end user, the supplying ISP and those bits of Openreach trying to do the right thing.  In the first instance, have you raised this as a formal complaint to Plusnet?

@Gandalf / @James_B are there any 'of you know who' back room escalation paths for complex scenarios such as this please?

[#14]

It's hardly putting Plusnet in the thumb screws. What other service gets to take zero responsibility for managing their relationship with their key supplier.

Plusnets contract is legally unfair because it gives customers only 14 days to cancel whilst allowing Plusnet infinite flexibility to cancel whenever they want.

There is no reason why Plusnet could not ensure that the openreach survey was done within 14 days so that , once the appointment was confirmed, it would not need to be cancelled. Plusnet are just washing their hands of any responsibility whatsoever. Fortunately the law does not permit this.

[#15]

Like so many things in life, there are easy ways to get things fixed and then there are harder ways...

• Jaw on the law about what should happen in an ideal world
• Use pragmatic alternatives to get the solution you really want

No ISP has governance over Openreach, but Openreach's CEO does and their office can be very responsive.