New to Fibre, first in my area, small bursts of packet loss weekday mornings only

[#1]

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@MisterW wrote:

@iZian just to note, after a change to the firewall setting, you need to disconnect & reconnect the PPPoE session ( or just reboot the router ) for the change to take effect

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Noted, thanks. I think I can do that using the disconnect and connect buttons... when I was FTTC I could do that I think. I had something like 400 days connected time though, I didn't change much back then. 

I think I'll see what tomorrow holds and then change the setting and see if that alters anything. Right now I've got stability, all my toes and fingers are crossed that it stays that way. But 8am tomorrow the man will be back to hit my cable with a shovel.
I'll change the firewall and reconnect the PPP 

[#2]

@iZian 

I'm increasingly of the opinion it's something "within" your network rather than an external (Openreach/Plusnet) problem and possibly on your work computer.

I would guess you powered up your work computer a bit before 7am, left it on until a bit before 8am then settled down to work. Work computer off a bit after 5pm.

I'm sort of wondering if when it does "something" which involves exchanging large amounts of data with "the cloud" the computer has some sort of connection problem (perhaps involving one of those corporate things like Zscaler or a VPN) and that's what breaks your video calls. 

[#3]

@markhawkin I had considered that but already took several steps to eliminate everything internal as the cause.

The VPN is just for git and has barely a Meg over it before I disable it again. I’ve even tried running the work laptop offline and using personal laptop for the meet. I’ve even tried using slack instead of meet. 

I’ve just had the “11pm” blip that I had 2 nights ago, last night it was about 10:45. Tonight it was 10:51. It’s probably a coincidence. I refreshed again and a few more happened after it… perhaps it’s rodents going to bed with my cables

the connection was quiet. We were just chatting. The laptops are all off. Nothing is scheduled for that time, no backups. I say the “11pm” blip only because I happened to see it when I was running pings the other day and happened to see it on the monitor yesterday, and I’ve just seen it now. 

we tried pushing the connection this evening around 8pm; had the work laptop on pushing containers I never usually do. Had 4K streaming and YouTube’s and FaceTimes. The yellow spiked as you’d expect. No packet loss. And yet here we are with idle network and then some 30 second period where there’s a chunk of loss happening comes along. And then just like that… back to normal. 

we are boring people. This house hasn’t changed in years until fibre. Getting a new internet connection and getting packet loss with nothing else changing isn’t a coincidence. 

I can work at my mums house on a 1mbps ADSL upload and have zero issues with the same laptop iPad and phone also on a hub 2. 

I’ve even tried manually twisting the thermostat on the fridge to see if it clicking on or off does anything. Nope. 

I can’t for the life of me make this happen on demand. No matter how hard I push the connection or what I run. The worst I can do is get a high ping. But according to MTR, when this happens, the pings that do not get lost are all low. Like 10ms. Nothing is loading the connection. Speed test shows my download ping goes up to the 30’s at least and upload to like 300-400. 

I don’t know; it’s late. I can’t think. I can’t see any patterns to this apart from time of day to some extent. 

Im going to have to turn off the power to everything apart from the internet and run my personal laptop on Ethernet to prove it’s not me I think. It’s not me…

[#4]

I also probably mentioned; my setup hasn't changed in years and years. Not a sniff of packet loss apart from when there was a problem with the FTTC a couple years back. And as soon as I swap my internet connection I get packet loss bursts. 

That's not coincidence. It was literally a case of RJ11 out and RJ45 in. And then... random bursts of 10-15-30 seconds of massive packet loss. 

So I've kept wifi off. I replaced the hub 2, didn't connect devices back to it, replaced the ethernet cable, used ethernet to test the pings, set up the monitor, tested that it's the first gateway hop that is lost, checked its packets inbound and packets outbound that are lost, tested it doesn't happen under load, found that it does happen when seemingly idle, I've seen it happen on the monitor when I'm out at lunch and the laptops aren't on. The only thing left I can do is re-test with just the personal laptop on ethernet to prove it, and this firewall setting if that works on Plusnet account.

As I post this; it's still happening, the laptops are off, wife is on 5G scared to use wifi because it's driving me insane, and the monitor shows packet loss... I have so much regret letting that FTTC connection go.

[#5]

I have to say this is all a bit odd.

Your 8pm traffic generation can be seen but doesn't show packet loss.

Overnight is very flat on the monitor and yet the first packet loss is at, perhaps, 5:30 am.

It shows all the signs of having a traffic related component, if it's not your traffic (and your case that it's not is quite convincing) then perhaps it is in the wider network.

I've absolutely no idea what monitoring Plusnet/Openreach can deploy on FTTC but my guess is there is some.

At this stage I think I would be phoning up Plusnet again and showing the Think Broadband monitor as evidence of unacceptable packet loss.

I don't think you have had the ONT changed and that would be worth Openreach doing.

Low light levels MIGHT be the cause of the problem and an ONT change (and the engineer putting a light level meter on the fibre) would prove or disprove this.

There is another (more "geeky") monitoring tool (f8lure.mouselike.org).

This can generate a text file and will show the packet loss in numbers and times.

It also comes from a different location to the Think Broadband monitor.

It's run by a person as a hobby and has a cost so if you leave it running for a while it would be kind to "buy them a beer". 

[#6]

@markhawkin Yeah; We kept the phones on 5G and laptops are cold. It feels like this is happening on someone else’s schedule. We are doing nothing near the 11pm spikes. We aren’t up early for the early spikes. We were out yesterday in part of the afternoon during that horrible afternoon of spikes. 

As you saw this morning the red spikes before we were up. And I’ve had my usual routine and no red spikes no nothing. 

the broadband monitor does have text output. These morning spikes were small, the second one shown was 6. I usually get 50-90% packet loss so 6 packets is probably about 7-12 seconds of packet loss there.

When I had 30 seconds or so of loss yesterday in one spike the output here was 18 lost  

i do have a reasonably sharp … turn? bend? I wouldn’t call it kink… in my fibre. Internally it runs along the ceiling and as it enters the room through the wall it comes out to the drill hole and back and it’s pulled so tight… 

I thought if that was too much it just wouldn’t work…

I could take a picture if it could be relevant.

You probably guessed I work in software and tech but the fibre optics are alien to me… I’ve always been sensitive to connectivity issues relying on it so much since 2020. I think or hope I’ve been savvy enough to rule out most things. I’ve not reconnected my security cameras properly yet; they’re only recording to local storage and no cloud uploads just in case.

I’ll try today, a power cycle perhaps. A longer one. I’ll run a power extension from a socket on a different circuit on the consumer unit perhaps. 
But I think from memory, last Friday was quite smooth. 

At this point I’d even pay for an ONT. I don’t know how much they cost. I’m literally losing hair over this. 

I can attach a photo of the cable but it’s probably fine at a 90° bend it has. I can attach some CSV output from yesterday if needed.

You think PlusNet support would look at this monitor data? The phone calls I had with them; they only seemed interested in talking about WiFi signal boosters and when I called again and said I used Ethernet to test it was like… ok well that’s life then good luck. I feel like I’m on my own, well with you guys at least thank heavens. 

[#7]

@iZian 

At this point I’d even pay for an ONT. I don’t know how much they cost. I’m literally losing hair over this. 

That's a non-starter I'm afraid, only Openreach can replace an ONT. The ONT serial no is 'keyed' to your connection.

I can attach a photo of the cable but it’s probably fine at a 90° bend it has. I can attach some CSV output from yesterday if needed.

Its not so much the extent of the bend as the bend radius that's significant. IIRC 30mm is the recommended minimum bend radius. (about a £2 coin). I'm no fibre optic expert either but If the fibre has been bent too sharp and damaged, would temperature changes cause intermittent problems ? 

A photo would be useful. 

[#8]

It does seem well worth an engineer visit from Openreach.

My case that the service is unsatisfactory would be the Think Broadband monitor packet loss.

It's Plusnet's router and their supplier's wider service (Openreach).

It could be that the fibre bend is a bit tight and causing loss but not enough to fail the service.

[#9]

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@MisterW wrote:

That's a non-starter I'm afraid, only Openreach can replace an ONT. The ONT serial no is 'keyed' to your connection.

A photo would be useful. 

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Sorry; yeah I meant I'd pay for a man in a van to come and just make it right at this point. I'm losing sleep over it already.

Photos; I ran down to take a couple quickly; I hope they're clear enough. I'll don't think it's too too bendy but it seems a little bit tighter than what was suggested. Sorry for cobwebs...

Update for today; red spikes before I woke up... nothing so far since I've been working. Video meetings fine. mtr command fine (same red for the hop that never really responds). Video meet running, VPN on. git syncing. TV streaming until wife left.

[#10]

Just a tiny update: just before 10am and it's my first major dropout of the day during my work. mtr showed the wall of red and I had to wait half a minute before we could hear each other. Nothing changed just before 10. I have only the laptop really doing anything. There were no spike in packets sent or received I could see. And no spike in data volume sent or received I could see. half an hour earlier I had to upload a large file. pushing the connection... nothing bad happened.

[#11]

@iZian well to me, from that 1st photo showing the cable entering the hole, I would say that bend radius is considerably less than 30mm! . What do you think @Dan_the_Van @markhawkin  ?

Also , that doesnt look like normal internal fibre ?? Internal fibre from the CSP to the ONT is normally only around 3mm diameter. That looks more like cat5 ?

Who fitted the cable ? I didnt think Openreach (or their contractors) would fit fibre through walls ?

[#12]

@MisterW  it's definitely fibre; I saw him stripping the black "outdoors" protection off it when installing. I live a mid terrace and there's no where really at the front where this could have gone, it's a terrible house, so we had to take it up a floor, and through the landing to where the small room is where the phone line was and all the router and hue bridge and the old landline base station was all in there.

Outside it has its black coat on. Inside it's this white cable that runs to the ONT and has a green end to it plugged in next to the power and the cat5e cable that runs to the hub 2.

Outside it runs down to the grey box at the front of the house and that's it. I'm 100% sure it's the fibre, when installing he wanted me to check it was not "kinking" as it was being pulled through.

Perhaps there's a thicker protection on it now? I heard that delicate fibre cables were a top cause of pain with people moving furniture or pets etc before.

I only have a tape measure but the cable looks to be about 4mm thick... I zoomed in a lot...

[#13]

@iZian 

Perhaps there's a thicker protection on it now? I heard that delicate fibre cables were a top cause of pain with people moving furniture or pets etc before.

You could be right, its a few years since my fibre was installed and the ONT is directly opposite the external CSP , so I only have a loop of 10cm or so of internal fibre to the ONT.

Just reading https://www.openreach.com/content/dam/openreach/openreach-dam-files/new-dam-(not-in-use-yet)/documen... and the pictures do show what appears to be thicker internal fibre, and the EZbend stuff does seem to be more tolerant of bends.

So maybe the possiblity of a fibre problem is a red-herring. However It might be worth some gentle pressure around the obvious bends just to see if that precipitates any packet loss. 

[#14]

@MisterW I've tried to push and prod a tiny bit; but nothing seems to change.

I also thought about the new build estate between my house and the exchange but they wouldn't be laying road surface at 5am or 11pm.

I might take everything offline for 30 minutes and see if I can get a new gateway, failing that try the firewall thing if it lets me turn it on (I've never had it on so might not allow?). And I might try running an extension AC from another power ring.

I can't tell if the ONT is faulty... and if it was faulty would it "own up" so to speak. An engineer might visit and say that looks fine, and if it's in one of these periods I have with hours of no packet loss then I'd also say it looks fine.

If it was consistent packet loss... like 1% or 5% spread out... I don't think I'd care. It's that it's a burst of 10-30 seconds now of 50-80% loss. And the more I've looked at it the worse it seems to have gotten 

I'm now sometimes seeing a small bit of loss and then a long period of large loss 

I'll go offline for half an hour. I'll pause the BQM thingy so it doesn't show a wall of red un-necessarily.

[#15]

@iZian  @MisterW 

When it clears moderation have a look at

https://community.plus.net/t5/Full-Fibre/Install-question-Run-CSP-ONT-fibre-under-my-floor/m-p/20454...

Brian