Am I on an 80/10 line?

[#1]

This is a handy link

https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/chart-of-bt-fttc-vdsl2-speed-against-distance-from-the-cabi... 

Observations looking at many Hub One/Two and other modem/routers over many years I created this rough guide for speed against distance. 0.3 Km was my Hub Two, FTTC is no more for me now FTTP.

Typical Downstream Line attenuation to Maximum data rate

0.7 Km from cabinet Maximum Data rate 35,000 Mbps; line attenuation 21.9
0.6 Km from cabinet Maximum Data rate 44,450 Mbps; line attenuation 19.1
0.5 Km from cabinet Maximum Data rate 50,415 Mbps; Line Attenuation 15.7
0.3 Km from cabinet Maximum Data rate 89.472 Mbps; line attenuation 11.6

[#2]

It just seems odd that my upload speed is so low, my download data rate is 60 with a maximum data rate of 64, noise margin 4, this is with line attenuation 18.7 and signal attenuation 25.2.
Whereas my upload data rate and maximum data rate are both around 8.5 with a noise margin of 6 and both line and signal attenuation of 11.3?

[#3]

@JHarland 

Are you or your neighbours using mains powerline adaptors to extend WiFi or ethernet LAN ?

Some people have reported that powerline adaptors interfere with their landline's VDSL performance.

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[#4]

I'm not using powerline adapters, unsure of my neighbours.

My setup is microfilter directly into the test socket to eliminate internal wiring, I'm using an adslnation xf-1e which after testing a number of different microfilters gave me the highest sync speed. This is then plugged into a 3m rj11 cable that is cat6a pure copper, twisted pairs and shielded, again since installing this wire my sync speed (for download has gone up). This goes to my Plusnet hub 2 in bridge mode which is then connected via a cat8 ethernet cable (I know cat8 is overkill but I got it for my eventual transition to fibre and for the higher shielding etc) to my Asus tuf gaming ax4200 router. The only thing that is less than ideal is my rj11 cable runs through a number of holes I created in the corner of a unit with the hub on the top shelf, the cable runs right next to an power extension cable, unfortunately there is nothing I can do to change this. I have tried things like ferrite chokes on the power cable etc but they were cheap Chinese ones with unknown ferrite mix and didn't make much difference

[#5]

I could change the extension cable to one that is shielded or similar (if one exists?) if that would make a difference?

[#6]

? ?

Are you asking whether a shielded main extension cable exists ?

Mains extension cables don't make any EMI/RFI noise (other than radiating 50Hz), unless they have built-in USB charging.

You can certainly get extension leads that have EMI/RFI filtering of the sockets, but that is different from being shielded.

Interference is generated by what is plugged in to an extension cable, such as plugged in power supply adaptors.

Things like plug in power supply adaptors can cause interference in two ways -

• They wirelessly radiate radio frequency noise which is picked up by the landline/RJ11 which act as radio aerials.
• They can conduct noise back out on to the mains wiring, which can then be picked up by the landline if nearby.

To minimise landline interference, you need to create distance between the landline + master socket + RJ11 cable + modem, away from ANYTHING electrical or electronic, the mains extension cable itself is unlikely to be your biggest problem.

As you have separate modem and router, where the location for the router might matter, instead of running a 3m RJ11 from the master socket to the modem, can't you move the modem to immediately next to the master socket, connect it with a 30cm or 50cm high quality RJ11 to BT431a cable, then run the modem's ethernet back to the router ?

On my setup, I can measure the difference in my modem line stats, and looking at it's VDSL tone BIN graphs, between using different length RJ11 DSL cables, having tested with 30cm, 50cm, 1.2m, 3m, and 5m.  My line degrades significantly with phone extension cable lengths beyond 1.2m.

Using an RJ11/BT431a cable, means that you can eliminate any line losses from having a filter in the circuit.

Filters were only useful to reduce interference from old style mechanical phones, and isolate the bell wire on phone extension wiring.

As your line is SoGEA (rather than FTTC), and you don't have extension wiring, you don't need any filters.

Clearly YOUR microfilters DO make a difference, because you selected the least bad one that gave the best line stats !

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[#7]

@Dan_the_Van 

Is it possible to get to the Plusnet Hub 2's VDSL tone BINs, either via web interface, telnet, DSLstats, or RouterStats ?

I'm wondering if @JHarland has a big hole in the tone BIN spectrum that might give a clue to what might be interfering ?

This is what a good VDSL tone BIN graph should look like -

[#8]

I might be misunderstanding you, are you saying I don't need a microfilter at all?

In theory I could move the modem to next to the master socket and buy a high quality 50cm rj11 cable. The issue I have and I don't know if it's contributing but my power extensions are currently one extension plugged into the wall with 2 extension plugs, one of these is plugged into my router power supply, the other is to another extension cable that goes off to plug my Asus router into, I know you shouldn't daisy chain extension cables but the power draw from 2 routers is going to not be at a level where it would cause an issue.

Do you think the length of my rj11 cable is likely causing some issues?

[#9]

@outcast 

Is it possible to get to the Plusnet Hub 2's VDSL tone BINs, either via web interface, telnet, DSLstats, or RouterStats ?

I'm wondering if @JHarland has a big hole in the tone BIN spectrum that might give a clue to what might be interfering ?

There is no telnet access or compatible version of a router stats that I know of, could be something causing interference, but saying that it's the line performance as much as can be expected for the length from the cabinet? 

[#10]

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@JHarland wrote:

I might be misunderstanding you, are you saying I don't need a microfilter at all?

Correct !

ISPs have always blanket told everyone to use microfilers, because it was easier than getting end users to figure out, what type of phone handset was plugged in, whether there were telephone extension sockets, whether the extension wiring had the bell wire removed (used for old mechanical dial phones), etc.

For most people with no extension wiring, and using a phone handset made since the 2000's, they probably never needed a filter to improve their broadband speeds.

I used to have a filtered Master Socket faceplate, only because it was convenient and tidy to plug the phone and modem in to separate sockets without having a dangly microfilter or BT431-splitter hanging down the wall.  Since changing my phone to VoIP, and the FTTC line to SoGEA,  I replace the filtered faceplate with the original BT431 single unfiltered socket faceplate, along with using a RJ11 to BT431 modem cable, and my modem's download sync speed improved from 73Mbps to 76Mbps.

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@JHarland wrote:

Do you think the length of my rj11 cable is likely causing some issues?

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I don't know !.

Some people will argue, how does a few extra feet of cable on the end of hundreds of metres of landline make any difference, but due to different cable impedances being involved, signal mismatches are inevitable, even across the BT and RJ11 plugs and sockets, inline filters, etc,  these issues will be unique to each individual installation.

All I can tell you, is that I'm on a 570m line, having always used the best cables available to me at the time, that MY line can be measured as having better results, when the modem's DSL lead is 1.2m or less.  You have previously commented on my modem's sync speeds and unused attainable rate,  and I'm telling you what I did to get MY line so good.

Your mileage may vary !

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[#11]

How much difference does it make for your line? and whilst I know you can't predict my exact situation I'm trying to get a rough understanding of what sort of difference it will make. I will effectively have to buy a new rj11 cable and extension cable, have to bore out the hole that the ethernet cable will run through as it's a bigger connector than the rj11, I'll also have to cut the head off the extension cable and rewire it the other side of the holes. Whilst I can do all of this is a fair amount of effort if the difference is going to be small, again, this might be something you can't answer.

The other alternative which is much less effort/hassle and lower cost is too buy a second hand Zyxel VMG1312-B10D for £10 off eBay, I've read that they have a better chipset/firmware than the Plusnet hub 2 and often sync better on noisy lines?

[#12]

Or put up with what you've got for a few more months, given that -

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@JHarland wrote:

The only full fibre option I have where I am it's voneus.

Openreach website says that full fibre will be available in my area in the next year so as long as the line stays stable I'll probably just wait it out

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[#13]

I have a similar (but simpler) setup to @outcast for my FTTC line. You absolutely do NOT need a filter, it only acts as an adapter between a BT phone socket and RJ11 modem cable. There's even an article I found somewhere on a BT site explaining that and alternative options. If only BT supplied a "proper" single-outlet unfiltered RJ45/RJ11 faceplate for their master sockets! 😂

I just hardwired a captive very short RJ11 cable into the back of a standard BT phone faceplate on my master socket, using the connectors for extension wiring. Works a treat.

And as noted way back in this thread my stats, on what is probably a slightly better/shorter line than the thread starter, are not much different. Just a little bit faster so upload is slightly over 10mbps. I'm definitely on 80/20.

My interpretation is that there is no capping and no fault either. Maybe just a less than perfect line with a not unusual level of local interference. "Flogging a dead horse" is starting to come to mind.... 😎