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A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Zixus
Grafter
Posts: 69
Registered: ‎02-09-2014

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Thanks to everyone for their comments and patience. I've tried to follow the guidance:
Modem
Modem restart was performed at approx 12.46. You can see the predicted increase in Down speed and a related drop in SNRM. It then falls off a cliff at 16.15,
BT66
BT66 (RHS): hopefully the new pictures are clearer. These appear to be two extension cables. I've loosely twisted the pairs. None of these wires are attached to anything inside the BT66.
BT66 (Bottom). Two black wires (below the BT66 they have been covered up with a white plastic covering. One thick black wire is what I'm assuming is the main BT line. The other is a thinner circular 'house' wire that goes back out and is wrapped around the house and enters the study.
Coming out of thick BT wire you have a load of unattached wires:
4. a bundle with 1 x Brown, 1 x Orange, 5 x Red, 1 x Green, 1 x Blue, 1 x Grey.
5. There is then 1 x White to crimp (no receiving wire attached).
6. 1 x Orange to crimp (no receiving wire attached).
7. 1 x White wire + Green wire twisted.
8. 1 x White loose.
9.  1 x Brown loose.
Do I need to loosely twist any of these wires?
The BT wire is connected to the thinner (circular) black 'house' wire:
1 x white BT66 wire to crimp to 1 x white 'house' wire
1 x blue BT66 to crimp to 1 x orange 'house' wire. There is a green piece of thread stuck to this crimp.
The 'house' wire has 1 x Green, 1 x Black wire (loose) and 3 white wires going into a 5th crimp.
Junction Box
The circular black 'house' wire comes into the white junction box (study) on the RHS:
'house' white is crimped to 'study' blue
'house' orange is crimped to 'study' orange.
'house' green and black wires are loose.
'study' green and brown wires are loose.
The 'study' cable goes directly to the NTE5Mk2.
NTE5Mk2
I'm not sure I've done this correctly. I removed the lower face panel (the one that would normally have a telephone attached). There are no cables to this face panel.
Anotherone
Champion
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Well done for that lot, you've done everything correctly.
The BT66, as far as the BT incoming cable is concerned, don't bother to do anything with those wires, just gently tuck the unused ones back in the box on the LHS.
The unused extension wires, loosely twist the pairs and coil the lot up on the RHS  perhaps towards the bottom.
The wires for the connection to the black cable just gently tuck in fairly centrally. We don't want anything snapping off.
The cable that goes round the house would seem to be standard drop-wire and the 3 white (possibly pale yellow) are the steel strainer wires which have been neatly dealt with.
There should be no further need to look at or go into this BT66 box again.
The NTE5A - fine, I take it you've put the faceplate back.
The white junction box - a bit of a shoddy job IMHO, the way the box was fitted leaving the incoming black cable untidily exposed in that manner - but that's not the problem, the cable from here to the NTE5A is the issue, being old standard non-twisted pair.
Quote from: Zixus
I was concerned that there was a fault between the new master socket and the old grey BT junction box that is used at the point of entry. However, none of the BTO engineers thought it was the problem.

And how right you were - but not faulty - wrong standard of cable internally, would have made a mess of FTTC.
How long is this cable from the junction box to the NTE5A (roughly)?
I'm guessing that you had an engineer visit when you were supposedly getting FTTC and that "engineer" fitted the current NTE5A with the Mk2 plate. I'm also going to guess that it was an Openreach sub-contractor (unless you are in N.I.) maybe Kelly or Quinn?
Whoever it was should have recognised that this cable was old standard and replaced it.
It is totally unsuitable, for FTTC in particular, and for good ADSL in general. It will be picking up MW/AM propagation far worse at night as well as a lot of other garbage (maybe REIN).
Looking at your Fibre thread, there are some inconsistencies on all these distances.
This supposed short run to the Cabinet. I understand you know where the Fibre Cabinet is, but is it near your standard PCP Cabinet?
When you ran the BTw ADSL Checker, it should have told you which Cabinet your were connected to, before all the data below.
Your incoming cable is underground, if I've understood one of your previous posts correctly, it ends up going up a pole (possibly the DP), how close is that? Does it go back down underground or continue overhead to the cabinet?
Line of Sight distances are no good unless you can see the cable. Cables in general will follow roads/footpaths, in some rural locations may go under fields.
Once you get to your PCP Cabinet, the cable then goes to the Fibre Cabinet for Fibre, or onto the exchange for ADSL. So you may have some extra distance from PCP to Fibre Cab for Fibre if they aren't next to each other.
The results from the BTw ADSL checker and the performance you are getting now & got on FTTC suggest that your 'D' side cable (PCP Cab to the DP) might be of poor quality or is faulty.
As has been mentioned, the Attenuation being reported by the modem/router is not consistent with the estimates of the speed you should get (and therefore the distances involved).
Just to wrap up this particular post, what modem/router are you currently using? The TG582n you had for Fibre, have you still got it - did you reconfigure it for ADSL? Did Plusnet supply another TG582n when you went back to ADSL?
plusnettony
Plusnet Staff
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Registered: ‎24-07-2014

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Details as requested.
WBC 1M - 3M Medium delay (INP 4) 6dB Downstream, 448 Low delay (INP 0) 6dB Upstream (ADSL2+)
Target SNR 6.

Copper Test Details 
A to E  B to E 
Capacitance:  357 NanoFarad  363 NanoFarad 
DP Line Length Estimate:  3454 Metres  DN Line Length Estimate:  3499 Metres 
Celerity:  58.7 dB  Line Loss:  47.44 dB 
Line Stability:  Stable 
Fault Report Advised:  N 
Service Level:  2 
If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Tony T
 Plusnet Help Team
Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Thanks Tony, a great help.
That certainly suggests that the line is of poor quality and not well balanced either, which will add to the problems with that internal untwisted pair cable. The Celerity figure gives an indication of how the line is performing and the Line Loss figure is more in keeping with the estimates from the BTw ADSL checker.
Zixus
Grafter
Posts: 69
Registered: ‎02-09-2014

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

@Anotherone, thank you for looking at this. I have tidied up the BT66 as suggested. I've tried to answer your questions below:
Black wire: The thin black from the BT66 to the NTE5A runs for approximately 25m around the house. Is there anything I can do about this cable?
Engineers: The initial engineers were independents but I'm not sure who they worked for.
Cabinet: I've attached a picture of one of the set of cabinets that may be Thatcham Cabinet 2 that a friend took. There is another set of cabinets 150m south of this set, but unfortunately I forgot to ask for a picture of those as well. Is the smaller green cabinet the PCP? I should be able to get a picture of the other cabinets tomorrow.
I re-ran the BT DSL checker this morning for our telephone number to confirm the cabinet details and it now says we cannot get Fibre until 17-Dec-2014 due to : [tt]Sorry your cabinet is temporarily unavailable, capacity will be restored as soon as possible[/tt].
BT Line: You are correct. From the BT66, the cable goes underground for approximately 14m to the pole. I will try to get a picture of this pole tomorrow. The line then goes to another pole that appears to distribute two lines to neighbours houses. There are then several more poles along the side of the lane until you reach the road that runs through the village. At this point it looks like it varies between poles and going underground. The general flow is along the side of the road. The road leads to the cluster of cabinets that I mentioned earlier.
If I drive the same route from my house to the group of cabinets, it comes out at 2.2Km. If I was to drive from the cabinets to the Thatcham exchange, it would add another 1.1Km. I'm not sure if that offers a better estimate of line length of 3.3Km?
Modem: I have a native Plusnet ADSL TG582n (from the previous house) attached to the line and it's been the source of all the samples recorded by DSLStats. I've set this modem to operate in Bridge mode. I also have the Plusnet TG582n FTTC. Initially I ran the set-up wizard to convert it to ADSL, but it appeared to be a bit unstable and I could not get it to operate in bridge mode correctly. That's why I retrieved the native ADSL version and attached it.
Other: One thing I've been wondering about is that when the modem was reset and the speed increased, the xDSL standard remained at ITU-T G.992.3. Should it have changed to 992.4?
Townman
Superuser
Superuser
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Registered: ‎22-08-2007

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Quote from: Zixus
    Attenuation [dB]:      62.0           35.7           

Quote from: plusnettony
Celerity:  58.7 dB  Line Loss:  47.44 dB 

Quote from: http
Celerity: Line loss in decibels – this measurement is taken by the routine weekend line tests a few times a month if line conditions and exceptions permit.

Is the Line Loss reported above the LLC Line Loss?
Quote from: http
LLC Line Loss: Line loss as calculated by the line loss calculator. This uses cable records if it they are present (in some cases cable records are not available). This value is distinct from line loss derived through Celerity test capability.
This value may be blank where cable records are missing. Where found, this should be raised as an issue via service manager or support desk to be investigated.
Data may not be fully up-to-date due to unavailability of cable records or refreshed cable records.

The router reports a greater attenuation than the measured Celerity.
The measured Celerity is much greater than the estimated Line Loss.
Something is very much amiss here!

Kevin

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
Thanks: 457
Fixes: 21
Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Sorry, I should have been crystal clear, it's the length of the white wire from the internal junction box to the NTE5A that I wanted to know.
The black wire is fine. Because this white wire is before the NTE5A that's Openreach responsibility
It comes as no surprise whatsoever that it was a sub-contractor that tried to do your Fibre install. Before they leave they are supposed to plug a JDSU tester into the master socket and run a series of automated tests the check the line and that the sync is within expected range etc. I wouldn't mind betting he didn't plug anything in except the modem. As far as what the checker now says about the Fibre Cab, all the initially installed circuits has obviously been taken up - lets hope they are getting decent performance.
As far as distance to the exchange goes, bearing in mind your description of the cable routing etc and what you have measured following the exact route,  is pretty consistent with the results from the Copper line Test (CLT) where the estimate is ~3.5km.and that is also consistent with the line loss figure of just over 47dB and hence the predicted speeds from the BT Wholesale ADSL checker.
Don't bother with any more photos, they won't serve any practical purpose, your description of the BT cable, the various routes along poles and underground clearly indicates the potential for multiple (poor) joints and possible water ingress somewhere that's resulted in the extremely poor performance. My gut feeling when looking at your first mention of the distances involved was that it had to be something like this.
On looking at the general state of the outside of your PCP Cab, my thought was I hope the inside and the cables are in a better state.
As far as the TG582n's are concerned, Why are you wanting to use them in Bridge mode, is it solely because you want to use your own router?
The "native" ADSL one,. what version firmware have you got on that one? Also early ones had USB sockets - does this have one?
Zixus
Grafter
Posts: 69
Registered: ‎02-09-2014

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Apologies, my mistake.
The white cable between NTE5 and the internal junction box is about 2.5m. Is there someway of bi-passing this particular cable?
TG582n (ADSL) software release: [tt]10.2.2.B[/tt]
This modem does not have the USB slot.
I use Bridge mode as I wanted to make use of the Archer C7 that I had bought to work with the BT FTTC modem. If it's an issue I can factory reset the TG582n.
Anotherone
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Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

The TG582n 10.2.2.B in bridge mode should not be an issue AFAIK. The fact that is has 10.2.2.B firmware is good news.
What about the original Fibre TG582n, what firmware has that one got and has it got the USB socket?
The length of white cable should ideally be replaced by Openreach with the correct standard CW1308 cable, it's jelly crimped to the incoming cable and as it's before the NTE5A it is Openreach responsibility and End Users aren't allowed to do it. This is something that can be pursued in due course in conjunction with the other issues.
Zixus
Grafter
Posts: 69
Registered: ‎02-09-2014

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

@Anotherone,
The Fibre TG582n has software release: 10.2.5.2.FO
Anotherone
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Posts: 19,107
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

I assume it's got the USB socket? I haven't played with 10.2.5.2.FO but 10.2.5.2.EO is stable on ADSL if you'd like to revert it and set it in ADSL mode (you can do all that off-line - I wouldn't even try it on-line) just so it's ready to try some tests at a future point.
Zixus
Grafter
Posts: 69
Registered: ‎02-09-2014

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Fibre TG582n does have a USB slot and is now set to standard ADSL configuration.
Townman
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 23,102
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Registered: ‎22-08-2007

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

@CRT,
Can you please comment on reply 35 - the stats do not seem to stack-up.  Is an engineer needed to inspect the circuit please?
Kevin

Superusers are not staff, but they do have a direct line of communication into the business in order to raise issues, concerns and feedback from the community.

Anotherone
Champion
Posts: 19,107
Thanks: 457
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Kevin did you read my replies #33 & #36  Roll_eyes
Anotherone
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: A rather sad ADSL2 connection...

Quote from: Zixus
Fibre TG582n does have a USB slot and is now set to standard ADSL configuration.

With 10.2.5.2.EO firmware which I know to be stable on ADSL?