Intermittent faul - Router crash

[#1]

Quote from: TonyK

If i buy another router it will be the third one. Isn't there anything else I can try first?

Contact support?
If a third router is needed, they can lend you one.
I would say that your noise margin 13dB(?) is high (it should be 6dB).
This either indicates that you have a lot of line drops or that you have a

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unstable line

.

[#2]

I am going back a bit here to check what has actually taken place:

Quote from: TonyK

In a desperate effort, I disconnected the bell wire.

Disconnecting the bell wire (from all sockets) will see your line noise drop (due to the quality of your home wiring improving), but I would not expect to remove intermittent faults unless there is intermittent noise in the neighbourhood, whereby removing the bell wire will reduce the overall negative effect of it rather than eliminate it all together.

Quote from: TonyK

So by Sunday night, I will have done the following: Changed Filters Changed Router Diconnected Bell wire Checked and re terminated internal wiring Had BT externaly check the line Had BT check and re terminate line at main socket.

I don't know how many of these checks have already been performed, but if you have so far been through the top three, then I would say that in all likelihood the problem lies with the external BT line.  Ideally, to eliminate another possibility you should have replaced the router with another type (different chipsets).  However, 2WIRE routers have good reports and the likelihood of both of them being dodgy is low, so my money would be on the BT line.
Two more things that you could check:
1. Use one of the many router stats monitoring applications to establish the pattern of low sync events.  See if any of them happen at a particular time of the day/night.  Note that the events could take place regularly, e.g. every evening, but the line only drops when additional contributory factors deteriorate the overall performance of the line below a certain threshold; e.g. when it rains.  Then check what electrical events happen in the neighbourhood at that time (I had words with my neighbour when I eventually nailed it down to the time his boiler kicks in every morning and evening!)
2. Check for audible noise (hissing, crackling) at the time the line drops or your Noise Margin reported in your router stats is low (below 6dB and more likely close to 0dB).  If you get hissing on your telephone line then the solution is to call BT and ask them to repair the line.
I have a friend who's struggling to get 0.5 Mbps on his line and every now and then the line drops at random.  At the time the line drops there's hissing/crackling on his line (it only lasts a few seconds).  He has reported an "intermittent fault with noise on the telephone line, especially when it rains" and a BT engineer who came over was cursing that the fault could be anywhere and that they would have to reterminate the line.    Make sure you don't mention the ADSL problems (unless they ask you) otherwise they will give you the run around with your ISP - you are reporting a telephone fault.
Good luck!

[#3]

Quote from: MickKi

I am going back a bit here to check what has actually taken place: Quote from: TonyK In a desperate effort, I disconnected the bell wire. Disconnecting the bell wire (from all sockets) will see your line noise drop (due to the quality of your home wiring improving), but I would not expect to remove intermittent faults unless there is intermittent noise in the neighbourhood, whereby removing the bell wire will reduce the overall negative effect of it rather than eliminate it all together. Quote from: TonyK So by Sunday night, I will have done the following: Changed Filters (Done) Changed Router (Done) Disconnected Bell wire (Done) Checked and re terminated internal wiring (Done) Had BT externally check the line (Done) Check indicated line was fine. Had BT check and re terminate line at main socket. (Done and re-tested by BT, Line checked out fine) I don't know how many of these checks have already been performed, but if you have so far been through the top three, then I would say that in all likelihood the problem lies with the external BT line.  Ideally, to eliminate another possibility you should have replaced the router with another type (different chipsets).  However, 2WIRE routers have good reports and the likelihood of both of them being dodgy is low, so my money would be on the BT line.

All of the above have been done. After BT checked the line, I got them to visit the house and check the point of entry; they did this and then re-terminated all the wires.
There is no audible noise on the line either before, during or after the retraining issue occurs.
As far the weather, it was raining last night and I had no errors at all.
Interleaving is active on my connection and the bell wire is disconnected, so this is probably reducing the impact.
Can anyone suggest a monitoring tool as suggested? Please remember that I am running vista, so some tools are not recommended.
Many thanks

[#4]

I leave the recommendation for monitoring tools to folks who use MSWindows (bear in mind that such tools are good for particular routers only).  I have come across these but have no idea if they would work with your router and if they run on Vista - I guess you could try them in turn:
http://www.routertech.org/viewtopic.php?t=1501
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/DMTv8.htm
In the very remote chance that you have two duff 2WIRE routers, can you borrow a different make from a friend or buy a cheap one from ebay perhaps? (or PM'me and I can swap/sell you a Netgear DG834GT which I have hardly ever used).
EDIT:  Just came across this message that mentions frequent 2WIRE router reboots: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18642765?hilite= ; Is the router firmware the latest available?  Do you need to connect to a BT ADSL account to be able to upgrade the firmware? (2WIRE say that the firmware updates are completely controlled by the ISP).

[#5]

Monitored line and router stats last night.
Noise level sits at a semi constant 13db with intermittent drops to 11/12db every 5 mins or so.
Line speed is constant.
When a retrain occurs, both noise and connection speed drop to 0kbps/0db for approx 5 secs and then both go back to previous levels.
This was accross a two hour period.
Any thoughts?

[#6]

The 11-13dB fluctuation is normal.  As a matter of fact the noise margin should be 6dB, but it seems that BT have raised it to 12 dB at the exchange to fight against the disconnections.  This clearly has not helped as the cause of the fault is not general deterioration of the signal (your noise margin would be constantly low at night and during damp weather) but a discrete event (perhaps a noise spike).
If at the time the link goes down you have audible crackling and hissing on the telephone line then the problem is most likely not related to your router.  Did you get a chance of checking for noise on the telephone while the line had dropped - difficult to do this if the connection only drops for 5 seconds, I know.  If the line is quiet (just press any button to get rid of the dialling tone) then it is likely that the router(s) are the culprits - see if you can upgrade the firmware or replace the router altogether.
HTH.

[#7]

Thanks for the reply mate, will check for audible noise tonight and report back tomorrow.
Thanks again.

Quote from: MickKi

EDIT:  Just came across this message that mentions frequent 2WIRE router reboots: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18642765?hilite= ; Is the router firmware the latest available?  Do you need to connect to a BT ADSL account to be able to upgrade the firmware? (2WIRE say that the firmware updates are completely controlled by the ISP).

The router was supplied by Plus.Net, so guys, what revision do you release for your users?
Original Router - 1800HG firmware revision 3.7.3 (This was the router that locked up so I pulled it out.)
I then replaced it with this one.... (Supplied by PN)
1800HG firmware revision  3.17.7 (This one says that there are no upgrades available.)

[#8]

You're welcome, 
Also came across this thread that speaks of electromagnetic interference, which is what you may be suffering from:  http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=1550.0 and it describes some ways of troubleshooting it.

[#9]

I have spent the last three days trying to hear if there is any noise on the line when the dropout occurs. (The dropout only lasts for 3-5 seconds so this is a little tricky)
I have heard nothing........
I am now starting to walk arround with a portable radio to test for external interferance.
Will update in a day or so with the results.
(My neibours already think I'm a loon so this should not cause too much embarrasment. Except to the wife and kids, lol)

[#10]

With no noise on the line this looks like a difficult problem to resolve.  2WIRE routers are not unknown for developing faults, dropping connections and what have you.  Perhaps you ought to replace it with a different make and see if the dropouts stop?
Saying all this to you, I just got myself a 1800HG which I use in bridged mode.  Let's hope it will hold on to the line better than yours!
Mine seems to have the 3.7.5 firmware and in bridged mode it does not show the menu option for upgrading the firmware.    Do upgrades work with PlusNet, or does one have to be connected to a BT Internet account?  Also, any idea if the 3.7.5 firmware is ADSL2+ compatible?
Good luck with solving your problem.

[#11]

After spending a couple more days in vain, trying to identify possible causes of the fault, I gave up
I was just getting to the point of saying I will just have to live with it when more events came to light.
Up to now, the only game I had installed an was playing was LotRO. (No comments please, lol)
I decided to install 'Battlefield2' (as I always enjoyed it) To my surprise and irritation, this makes the issue 100 times worse, which is excellent.
Let me explain.
The game runs perfect in single player mode. (Non net) so I know the game is not at fault.
When I try multiplayer, it causes the line to resync immediately. 
The server browsing feature of the game, (The bit where it looks for servers on the net that you can join.) will cause the issue every time you click 'find servers'
At first I though this may have been some sort of 2wire firewall issue, so disabled all the firewall functions to test the theory.
This made no difference at all. I made sure all the correct ports were forwarded.
I played the single player mode for an hour or so to completely rule out any game related issues. (Patched everything first inc. PunkBuster)
I am now convinced that this has got to be yet another fault with another 2wire router. I am assuming that it is related to how the router is handling the traffic, or maybe even the type of traffic.
“Dear plus.net, as this router was supplied with your service, could you please replace it.
(It is less than 4 months old.)”
Many thanks
Tony

[#12]

Strange as we aren't seeing any connection drops here. Your current session has been ongoing for over a week without disconnecting:-

Quote

21:44 08/Jun/2008    7 Days, 12:4:15 (on going)

[#13]

I dont think the line is dropping, the router goes through a resync, the connection light flashes amber then goes solid green.
The whole process lasts 5-10 seconds at the most, too quick for a complete line drop. but during this time, there is no traffic in either direction on the wan. This is why I am convinced it is the router. Your connection quote seems to support this also.
I have used tools to monitor this event and the graphs show a constant connection speed then at the time of the issue, the speed drops to 0 and then rises straight back up again. (The same thing happens with the noise margin.)
It at first seemed intermittent as it happened once or twice a day while playing LotRo.
But after installing BF2, I can recreate the issue on demand.

[#14]

Hi TonyK,
I read this thread with interest, and whilst I'm no expert on your router or an on-line gamer, there seem to be a few things that don't seem to add up, so I hope my observations/suggestions maybe of some help.
When you were on a 4M connection you had a good noise margin 22dB which "improved" to 25dB when you changed the router. After Chris Parr changed you to 8M you have a noise figure of around 13dB (although I don't know anything about the LLU product, I would imagine he set the target SNR to 6dB), so this would suggest that you have a 'generally' low noise line but subject to occasional interference and from your comments it is possibly quite spikey (I'm sure Chris Parr will comment if the assumption about the LLU target SNR is wrong).
In the last posts Chris Parr has said your connection hasn't disconnected for over a week, you've said about the router doing a re-sync, the light flashing amber then going solid green (I presume this is a light on the Router?), but you said you 'dont think the line was dropping'. Does this light possibly also flash if your wireless connection drops?
You said a few posts back about when resetting 'the wireless will not broadcast unless I attach to the router by wire and manualy disable then re enable the wireless setting'. I'm wondering if your wireless connection may have an issue? Is the problem the computer end of your wireless connection?Is the connection secure (no-one hacking in) and do you have enough signal?
Also talking of hacking, as an on-line gamer is it possible that potential competitors may try to hack you to disadvantage you? And here is where my ignorance of on-line gaming is complete! - you have 'Lorelin Server' in your sig. Does this mean your machine is being used as a server as part of the game playing process, is it possible you could be getting some sort of attack?
I would recommend the following if you haven't already done it.
1) Updated Antivirus and antispyware, run a full check on your machine whilst off-line. (Turn off the wireless).
2) Wireless off, connect by cable and if your machine is a server, disable that, and check if you have problems without wireless.
3) Whilst the chances of have 2 dodgy routers isn't huge, if they are of similar manufacturing age, it is possible, so try a completely different router, hard wired to start with, then proceed to wireless if no problems.
Hope these ideas may be of some help.
Regards.

[#15]

Thanks for the reply, there is a fair bit to go through here but I will take them in the order they were raised.
Well here goes.......
SNR - My SNR sits at 13db with small dips to 12db, I have been informed that this is normal. The dips do not coincide with the drop outs. When a drop out occurs both the line speed and SNR drop to zero before climbing back up to previous levels.



Green/Amber Lights - The 2Wire router has 3 lights. The first is for the router state. On power up this light flashes and then goes solid when the router is fully booted. 
The second light is for line status. The light flashes amber while the line is training then goes solid green when sync'ed. (This is the light that changes during the issue) 
The third is for LAN connection (This includes wireless) If there is nothing connected by wireless or cable this light does not illuminate. Connection by either medium will cause the light to go solid green. (This light is unaffected by the issue.
Hacks - The 2wire range is pretty good at detecting these, and has separate logs to show attacks. There are no attacks that correspond to dropouts. (Also I can recreate the dropouts from BF2 at the point I click to update the server list) so I doubt this is the cause.
Server - The server in my sig purely indicate the LotRO server I connect to when playing the game. I don't host any apps as a server from my pc.
Anti Virus/Spy ware - I have the latest definitions on both software types and full system scans have been done. (And still are at least once a week.)
Wireless - The issue occurs on both wireless and cable connections.
Changing Routers - This is an issue, the second router that I am using was supplied from plus.net, with the issue I have, the test results from BT and the connection data from the software I have been using, the evidence seems to point at the router. Hence the request for PN to replace it.
PHeeeeeeeew

Thanks again for the reply 'Anotherone' I hope I didn't send you to sleep with the reply, lol
Regards......

So Plus.Net, can we get the router swapped out on the basis of all of the above and the wireless network issue mentioned earlier in the thread?