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Hub 2 experiences

greygit
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Hub 2 experiences

Well. How can I say this politely?

 

The new Hub 2 arrived, got connected and got (remotely) configured. It worked. But not as a network device. It doesn't comply with subnetting.

 

There's no way to clear the event log with a command.

 

I'd have thought that the event log would be cleared when power cycling it. That doesn't happen.

 

I'd have thought that the event log would be cleared when a factory reset occurs. That doesn't happen either.

 

Factory resets are recorded in the event log.

 

It appears that there is absolutely no way to clear the event log.. I suppose whatever is storing the events could eventually run out of memory, but has that 'event' been as effectively tested as the subnetting?

 

My politeness has now expired (unlike the event log).

 

Plusnet's Hub 2 (based on BT tech) is a total pile of [-Censored-]e. IMHO. Whoever did the design/firmware needs a very serious talking to, IMVHO.

 

Of course, none of these 'features' are documented in a publicly accessible manner.

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dvorak
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Re: Hub 2 experiences

It's a home router which you are neither required to use or forced to take, as you're well aware.
For the vast majority of customers of this budget ISP it is more than adequate for their purposes and a big improvement over the Hub 1.
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bobpullen
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Re: Hub 2 experiences

The event log will not take up all the available memory. I'm almost certain it will be rotated/purged well before there's any risk of this happening.

@greygit - there are a few of your observations I'm yet to look into fully (subnetting issue for one), but from the various posts you have made on the subject - I can't help but feel that many of the consumer-grade routers offered by ISPs aren't going to be the best fit for your requirements.

Bob Pullen
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greygit
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Re: Hub 2 experiences

"The event log will not take up all the available memory. I'm almost certain it will be rotated/purged well before there's any risk of this happening."

 

Without pulling the hardware apart is there any available documentation of what is inside the hub2?

 

"I can't help but feel that many of the consumer-grade routers offered by ISPs aren't going to be the best fit for your requirements."

 

Sticking with the event/system log theme, the TG852n had the capability of clearing the log (via the CLI, admittedly) and (failing that) the event log would be cleared at reboot *and* reset to factory default. I've never come across a consumer-grade product with such resilience. Even (a lot of?) Cisco routers won't retain the system logs across a reboot or a hardware reset (or they never used to). And that was commercial-grade.

 

Was the TG852n a 'consumer-grade' product once it got the Plusnet logo on the outside plastic casing? I can suppose most consumers never got past the web interface, but it was marketed as consumer-grade. It was supplied as such. I don't think I ever called customer support (or made visitations to the community website) to make comments about it.

greygit
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Re: Hub 2 experiences

It has much reduced functionality over previously supplied units which I also wasn't forced to take.

 

Does the BT version (available for purchase at 200 quid on BT's site) have very much improved functionality?  I could be wrong, but I don't think so from what I've read.

Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Hub 2 experiences

@greygit  I don't understand why you are wasting your time looking at and complaining about all those useless junk routers, when you could have the most epic router to play with for virtually no cost, just by repurposing an old low powered PC and loading a free download of pfSense on it.  You can have multiple weird subnets, massive log files limited only by your SSD capacity, and so many other fun things to play with, and a library of downloadable apps to further enhance it's capabilities.

greygit
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Re: Hub 2 experiences

Weird subnets?

 

IPv4/33 would be weird; so would /32. But /30 looks fairly standard to me.

 

Why should there be a consumer-grade network device that retains its log entries across reboots and factory resets? Sounds like extra hardware and build costs.

bobpullen
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Re: Hub 2 experiences

@greygit - the consumer BT version has arguably less functionality, although I'm not 100% what firmware the BT Shop version is loaded with.
I'm baffled by your desire to clear the logs. What benefit does it bring you? I can raise the behaviour question with the vendor, but what's the end game? Huh

Bob Pullen
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greygit
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Re: Hub 2 experiences

I'm likewise baffled by the desire to have the logs (semi) permanently on consumer devices. Why is it necessary? Where did the requirement come from?

I'll float this at you.

 

The CWMP protocol (as far as I see) does provide capabilities for remote logfiles to be uploaded from end-user devices to servers (unknown). Yes, i know that CWMP are normally established by consumer device, but that is where the consumer loses visibility of what happens.The device doesn't have the capability of disabling CWMP.

 

Networking - the art of the possible dressed in opacity.

Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Hub 2 experiences


@greygit wrote:

 

IPv4/33 would be weird; so would /32.

 

No,  a /32 is a perfectly valid subnet.  pfSense for example has specific range checking to allow a /32 subnet to be assigned to an IPv4 WAN interface, whereas the smallest it allows on a LAN interface is /31

 

 


@greygit wrote:

 

But /30 looks fairly standard to me.

 

Agreed, I have a router interface with a /30

 

 


@greygit wrote

 

Why should there be a consumer-grade network device that retains its log entries across reboots and factory resets?


 

A router that loses it's log file after a reboot, probably indicates that that log is held in RAM rather than written to 'disk' (i.e. SSD or flash memory), and would indicate the designer made the product a cheaply as possible.  However a design with a non-volatile log file, especially on an ISP branded router, would show that there was a design consideration for "customer services" to be able to assist in diagnosing the end user problems by remotely downloading the log file to see what is really happening with the device, rather than relying on mostly non-technical customers reporting vague problems, or denying that they have been repeatedly rebooting the device when the log file might indicate otherwise.

Given the choice of whether I would want my router to retain it's logs across resets or not,  I would always choose to have as much logging retained as possible,  because you can then compare logs for reboots when you have tweaked one thing to see if it made a difference,  also it is useful to be able to see whether a router that randomly rebooted had some event just before it reset.

 

I agree that it would be a nice to have feature, to have a GUI button or CLI command to clear a log file, as sometimes you get so deep in solving a problem that having to search a huge log for the start of a current diagnostic timeframe gets tedious.

 

It is unusual that the log files aren't cleared on a factory reset, because a factory reset is usually a last resort when a device is unresponsive due to memory corruption or a software fault, and so resetting the logs would generally be a good idea.  However there was an occasion on this forum where a customer discovered by looking at the logs that survived a reset, that their child had worked out that in order to access the WiFi (that the parent had deliberately disabled), that the child had figured out that pressing the factory reset button got the router to auto-configure with TR-069 and by default switch the WiFi back on, without the child knowing the GUI login password.  So seeing the factory reset in the log file, was able to understand how the cunning child was bypassing the router security.

greygit
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Re: Hub 2 experiences

My last contribution on this - thx for ideas, observations, anecdotes, time taken/donated.

 

 

greygit
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Re: Hub 2 experiences

"No,  a /32 is a perfectly valid subnet."

 

Hair-splitting on 'what is a network'.

/32 is a valid mask which defines a single IP address with no network, no broadcast address or the possibility of a gateway.

It requires an entry (either manually entered or negotiated) in a routing table to get to join and participate in any network. Otherwise it is a stand-alone IP address which doesn't go anywhere.

 

(Thanks for refreshing/dragging up old learnings)

greygit
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Re: Hub 2 experiences

Mr. Pullen.This little thread has enlivened my braincells.

 

Apologies if I've upset anyone (I can be abrasive at times, something I will openly admit to). No laws were broken, and standards were not redefined. I've learned some stuft & remembered some stuff.

 

Definitely, definitely my last contribution. If you're a PN employee then you shouldn't have any difficulty working out who I am/what my PN account is.

bobpullen
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Re: Hub 2 experiences


@greygit wrote:

The CWMP protocol (as far as I see) does provide capabilities for remote logfiles to be uploaded from end-user devices to servers (unknown). Yes, i know that CWMP are normally established by consumer device, but that is where the consumer loses visibility of what happens.The device doesn't have the capability of disabling CWMP.


On this point, we would not include a locally-accessible feature to disable CWMP. It is used for TR069 provisioning and firmware/security updates. Disabling it would effectively 'orphan' a customer's device. You're right, we can remotely retrieve the logfiles using CWMP, however this is currently on an ad-hoc basis (although we do implement on a wider scale when we're piloting firmware upgrades etc. as a method of monitoring success). What we can do remotely is a lot more involved compared to what is exposed to the user.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
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