False hope and broken promises? - line speed low

[#1]

Quote from: Anotherone

Well as long as that cable is twisted pair and not just screened then it should be OK... Depends on where you bought it.

As far as I remember & can tell from looking at the cable, it is twisted pair. I thought it was STP (vs. UTP), though that doesn't fit with this description.

Quote from: Anotherone

its the CRC's that are more important and they are high for the short uptime. That and the low sync ... Can you hear/have you heard any crackling or other noises on the line when using the phone? Have you had any problems with incoming or outgoing calls?

I had another reconnection yesterday, too - I checked the line stats and noticed an uptime of three hours or so. So far, this has never happened while I've been using the connection. I've never heard noise on the line, especially not crackles. I'll try a quite line test (someone suggested it earlier) when I get home though.

Quote from: Anotherone

When you had a look at the back of the master socket ... do you recall what the colour of the wires were connecting to terminals 2 & 5? Also could you see a cable sheath on the incoming cable and what colour was it?

I'm afraid I don't remember, except that they weren't the 'normal' colours (orange & white according to here). The incoming cable was white-sheathed with just two wires connected - there were several other cores (I think at least four more) wrapped around the sheath.

Quote from: Anotherone

Is there any other phone sockets at all in the house?... Can you see the route of the incoming cable, is it overhead or underground and are there any more connectors anywhere before the master socket?

Actually, I live in a large apartment block which used to be a Victorian hotel (mentioned in an earlier post), so I have no idea where the cable comes from. I believe this is the only socket in the flat, though there might be one in the bedroom - I'll check when I get home.
It may also be worth noting that the previous tenant was with Sky and didn't cancel their subscription before moving out! I had to pay Plusnet to 'reactivate' the line, and an engineer came out to inspect the socket, so the line could be reconnected to BT's equipment at the exchange. Had I realised this before I signed up for Plusnet, I probably would've stuck with Sky, if only to save the on the ridiculous engineer cost!

[#2]

Sorry, could your expand on the "engineer cost" and what did he do exactly?
If you get a chance to check the wires again, as it's internal wiring from some Distribution point in the building, they could be Blue+white trace on 2 and White+blue trace on 5 and if there is one in the bedroom have a look at that as well.
I take it from the way you have described it that the phone line was totally dead when you took it over, no dial-tone?

[#3]

Quote from: Anotherone

Sorry, could your expand on the "engineer cost" and what did he do exactly? ... I take it from the way you have described it that the phone line was totally dead when you took it over, no dial-tone?

No, the line was working - I had a dial-tone. But like I said, the previous tenant was with Sky (LLU) and hadn't deactivated it, so it was still connected to Sky's equipment at the exchange. So I was charged £45 for an engineer to change this back to BT's equipment at the exchange and then test the line, because BT can't assume anything once the line has been taken over by Sky. Or at least, that's the justification I got from Plusnet. If the previous tenant had actually deactivated the line, my understanding is that Sky should have reverted the line back to BT and I wouldn't have been charged...

Quote from: Anotherone

If you get a chance to check the wires again, as it's internal wiring from some Distribution point in the building, they could be Blue+white trace on 2 and White+blue trace on 5 and if there is one in the bedroom have a look at that as well.

That's exactly it - I just checked and it's blue+white on 2, white+blue on 5 and there are four other wires wrapped around the sheath (orange, green and respective white ones). I found a socket in the bedroom, but there's no dial-tone on it. It's a bit awkward to get it off the wall - do you think this is necessary?
I'm getting some really peculiar line stats now...
[quote=TG582n DSL Connection stats]Uptime: 0 days, 16:45:05
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.208 / 7.611
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 25,7 / 40,5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 5,6 / 2,6
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 18 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 2 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 24.905 / 4
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 604 / 99.795.754
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 63 / 137.635
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 323 / 2.473.795

[#4]

Check again whether you can you hear any crackling or other noises on the line when using the phone. You might need to be a bit OCD about this for a while until we can discover what is going on. There certainly seems to be some interference/noise reducing the noise margin. So because of that, yes, the bedroom socket ought to be looked at. The wiring there could be messed up and causing this.
As I said/implied earlier, the "cause" is giving you significantly lower performance than you should be getting.
Also on this line take-over

Quote from: smilerish

No, the line was working - I had a dial-tone. But like I said, the previous tenant was with Sky (LLU) and hadn't deactivated it, so it was still connected to Sky's equipment at the exchange. So I was charged £45 for an engineer to change this back to BT's equipment at the exchange and then test the line, because BT can't assume anything once the line has been taken over by Sky. Or at least, that's the justification I got from Plusnet. If the previous tenant had actually deactivated the line, my understanding is that Sky should have reverted the line back to BT and I wouldn't have been charged...

I don't think you should have been charged anything, but I need to check up to be sure. Who are you paying Line Rental to BT or Plusnet?

[#5]

Quote from: Anotherone

Check again whether you can you hear any crackling or other noises on the line when using the phone. You might need to be a bit OCD about this for a while until we can discover what is going on.

I've done this twice now, and there's absolutely nothing - no even the slightest blip, hiss or crackle.

Quote from: Anotherone

There certainly seems to be some interference/noise reducing the noise margin. So because of that, yes, the bedroom socket ought to be looked at. The wiring there could be messed up and causing this.

Well I took the socket off the wall, and it's not connected. There's a wire inside the socket, but it's not even been stripped back - looks like it's never been used since the socket was installed. The building was converted to apartments in 1999 by the way, which is probably when these sockets were installed.

Quote from: Anotherone

I don't think you should have been charged anything, but I need to check up to be sure. Who are you paying Line Rental to BT or Plusnet?

Well that's an interesting development! I would add that, at the time I ordered from Plusnet, I had no idea what the phone number was (why would I? It wasn't 'my' line). I pay line rental to Plusnet (line rental saver).

[#6]

Well I think you were incorrectly charged, but someone from DCT will need to look into this.
According to http://www.plus.net/info2/legal/price_guide.html#talk LLU transfers are free (the fact that you didn't know the number seems irrelevant) and to Start a stopped line (even if there was no dial-tone, there usually is) is free.  Only if  wires are disconnected outside the exchange should it count as a new line provide.
Openreach have full records of the connection between your flat and the exchange, any testing to check the line was OK could have been done remotely by Openreach and the only reason an engineer would have to attend was if having changed the line over for some reason it didn't ring when called or you had no dial tone which would be odd as you have dial-tone to start!
On the stats, well there's definitely a problem, the low sync speed for that SNRM and attenuation, coupled with the extremely high errors for the short uptime proves that. What's it showing the DSL connection type as?

[#7]

Quote from: Anotherone

Well I think you were incorrectly charged, but someone from DCT will need to look into this.

Is this something I could get refunded, then? (I've just checked: it was actually £49.99 for a "Phone line installation fee", but there was definitely a line already installed when I moved in).

Quote from: Anotherone

On the stats, well there's definitely a problem, the low sync speed for that SNRM and attenuation, coupled with the extremely high errors for the short uptime proves that. What's it showing the DSL connection type as?

As far as I can tell, this has never changed: ITU-T G.992.5. Is there any chance that this could actually be a router problem, out of interest?

[#8]

If they agree you shouldn't have been charged, then yes they could refund it. However if this was and remains classed as a new install, then IMHO the engineer did not do his job thoroughly and has left you with a sub-standard line it might seem, IF in answer to you next question it isn't a modem/router problem. Can you borrow a modem/router from someone to try, because if there is a problem with the current one, the warranty will run out soon.

[#9]

I can't think of anyone who'd have a spare router to try immediately. I've done a quick search on gumtree, and there's a few cheap options available locally. Two of them are BT Home Hub 2.0s - would these suffice for testing?
Also, are there any tools I could try to get more information? I've seen reference to RouterStats, which reminds me of another tool I once used many years ago which plotted the actual frequencies used by the router. This may have been on Virgin though (my parents have Virgin broadband) - I honestly can't remember.
Thanks for all your help Anotherone!

[#10]

It might have been DMT. Try RouterStats-Lite from here. Very easy to set up. Create a folder some where convenient - ideally in root (C:/) so there's no privilege issues. You can create another folder somewhere if you want to save the Captures and Log file in a different one.. Below is my suggested setup from one of the previous versions, there may be very minor changes.
Do not click on the Start Arrow, bottom left, yet! But it ought to automatically open at the Setup tab the first time anyway.
First go to the Setup tab, then the Router tab and select your modem/router. Maximise the RouterStats window.
The URL tab should show the path where you get the stats, tick the box for the full path.
On the Login tab, there should be a tick in the box 'Router requires you to login'
The Username will show the default one, which you may have changed.
The password may be a default one(unless changed by you) or the one provided with the router originally - note, this is not your broadband password.
On the Graph tab, initially, leave ticks in the Adjust axis automatically boxes, you may want to alter the settings later. Tick Noise Margin Vertical Axis 'Plot average value of previous 50 points', but not the Connection Speed average.
In the Sample Interval box choose 'Sample router every 10 seconds' and 'Points per page 720'
Next, go to the Capture tab. Define the folder where you want to save the Captuired graphs, this could be the folder where you've installed RSL or another of your choice. Tick 'Capture noise margin graph images', also tick 'Capture part-graphs when RouterStats-Lite closes'. Tick the other two graphs if you wish. I'd tick the sync speed in the current situation.
Go to the Log tab, type the filename you want for the log, e.g. RSLite.txt & then browse to the folder you want to save it in, suggest the same as the graphs, when selected, the full pathname will appear in the box. Comma seperated values is selected by default, and log every 1 sample.
Nothing to change on the Appearance tab.
On the System tab, tick 'Minimise to system tray', 'Prompt before closing', 'Show noise margin on tray icon' & 'Show tooltip hints'. If you want the Ping plotter, tick that as well.
You can now go tom the Noise Margin tab and click on the green Start button. You should see a Green Camera icon on the LHS showing capture is active.
If you  right click on the graph, the drop down menu shows a tick against Capture. You will also see some other handy options you can use at anytime.
There is a minor bug in the last 2 versions where the ping is not being Captued automatically, so if you want one, do a right click Capture now.
EDIT: Forgot to add, Maximise the RouterStats window before Minimising it to the Tray. This ensures captures are at the full screen size showing the most detail (as far as the SNRM is concerned).
HTH.

[#11]

I've had this running most of today - images and log file available here: http://db.tt/eY5JxvQM
Can't say I know what to make of that, but hopefully someone can help me?
I've also bought another router (Netgear DGN1000) to try out, so I'll see if that connects any differently!

[#12]

Well done for that. You can attach .jpg images to a post by the way - it's better than external sites as they won't disappear or rely on the external server to respond, no worry though. There's not much point in posting up the blank graphs, and the sync graphs that are absolutely flat are probably not worth posting, but if there was a loss of sync and the speed changed, that graph would be handy. But as you've posted the RS.txt file it's not essential.
First thing to say is the modem/router has done very well considering some of the drops in the SNRM are so close to zero, it's held sync all day.
The Downstream Noise Margin graph is showing the typical disturbances I would expect and they are quite severe. There is also some ripple on the Upstream SNRM so I'm a bit surprised no noise has shown up on the phone at any time - unless of course this is entirely caused by the modem/router - the filter is another possibility - have you tried another filter, if not, try that first.
BUT for future reference use the following Disconnect method when you need to do anything that involves losing sync -
Log in to the Modem/Router, in the Internet box, click Disconnect to drop the PPP Internet session (this is not the sync), wait about a minute and then power down the Modem/Router. After about another minute you can unplug it from the line. Do whatever is needed, swap filter, leads, modem/router, whatever, but stay offline for at least 10 minutes.
When you re-connect and power up, Login to the Modem/Router and click Connect. Don't do this more than 5 times in an hour, then leave it for the rest of the day. This method is to help stop the Exchange DLM from thinking your sync loss was a dropped connection.
PS. You can do a Disconnect & Connect (without a power down) to Gateway hop.
The other tip is before you start RouterStats with a new modem/router, rename the existing .ini file so you know which router it was for, then set up again for the new modem/router.
Oh, nearly forgot, to add an attachment to a post, if you didn't use the Reply button, when you've typed the message, click on Preview, then below the box you'll see the + Additional Options and Attachments..., click on the plus then Browse to where you saved the .jpg
HTH.

[#13]

By the way, testing with a BT Homehub should work, see this Library article for guidance.

[#14]

Well the Netgear was probably the worst purchasing decision of my life! It's useless - I had it running about 24 hours and, at first, it was connecting a bit faster than the SpeedTouch and showed a lower line attenuation of 39.5 dB. But it's disconcerting a lot, when it has been connected the performance has been flaky (streaming itv player last night was a painful experience!), and the wifi seems to be dire too. Naturally, reading reviews after the event has backed up my experience.
So I've just reattached the SpeedTouch following your instructions. I might try getting hold of a Home hub for further testing, but I'm beginning to wonder where that'll get me.
At this point, am I better off raising a ticket with plusnet to get someone to investigate the line properly? What vital info should I include to lead them in the right direction? I'm thinking the DSL stats should do, and maybe the SNRM graph? And should I mention about the apparently needless "line installation"?

[#15]

Sorry I meant to flag the installation business up, I'll do that -edit, now done. Did you run Routerstats-Lite whilst the Netgear was connected? It would be important to see if the SNRM graphs were similar as the fault process will only tell you to try another filter and modem/router in the test socket (in your case the one and only socket). Really need to be certain it's not the modem/router or filter that is at fault as you aren't hearing any audible noise to indicate an obvious line fault.
If that Netgear actually seems faulty after you've done some further checks, try and get your money back. What model was it?