LLU Query

[#1]

I'm getting tempted with LLU as well at the moment but I'm still looking into it. There are other things to investigate for me as swapping would be a big deal. I'm still trying my best to see if I can get my speeds any better and make sure that the slow speeds are not a problem at my end. Sky and Talk Talk are both in my exchange on LLU. I know people on both and they get better speeds than me.
Having said that in PN's defence, should there be a problem with my connection I think PN would be better to deal with than the other two. My experience of Sky has not been good regarding TV not BB though.
You should also be aware that some exchanges are not totally unbundled and some even share the equipment which is another worry. I'm making sure that all my equipment is in order before changing, the only thing I don't want to lose is my fastpath which seems to be a grey area with Sky but they say after the 10 day training period you can request it.
Something else that has crossed my mind and you should probably consider is if your exchange is LLU enabled by some supplier but mainly BT for the rest of it that means the LLU equipment is cheaper for them to provide to a customer its not going to be long before its maxed out as it will be the cheapest in your town. I'm not even sure that providers can guarantee you get on the LLU and may just put you on the BT gear, I have seen a lot of people complaining about unanswered requests to be put on.
My final worry, I appreciate that prob 8/10 broadband problems are down to the end user who usually instinctively blame their isp but in all the years of being with PN I have never seen as much action in this part of the board complaining about speed/sync issues and from people who seem to know what they're talking about.
Doesn't fill me with confidence.

[#2]

I actually sympathise with PN on this matter, they are stuck with BT equipment that seems to be the bug bear of most of the problems. PN actually have one of the better policies there is when it comes traffic management compared to others. The only way to get round this is use their own equipment in the exchange which takes money and new customers which are going to get harder to find as more LLU comes into service at cheaper rates.
The winner yet again being Sky who have the cash to go right now, whether they treat you the same as they do with me and my TV package is yet to be seen.

[#3]

I didn't say I was going to Sky. I wouldn't sign up to ANYONE with a 12 month contract.

[#4]

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whether they treat you the same as they do with me and my TV package is yet to be seen.

When I say you I mean that generally speaking meaning everyone, everything else applies to whichever LLU enabled isp you choose.
Maybe BT just want to pull their finger out. I talk to a BT guy about the exchange where I live and he tells me that the equipment is so old and there's no room so the only thing that would bring us out of the dark ages would be knocking it down and starting again.
Two people I know are on LLU in my exchange who live within half kilo to me and virtually next to each other. One gets awesome results and the other hates it and can't get any service from the isp. Your probably doing the right thing by not going for 12 month contracts at least you can get out if it doesn't work out.
BT need cut out of this deal altogether IMO, too many cooks are spoiling the broth. The issue as I can see is BT seem to class getting a connection at all as being acceptable, then on the other end of the scale there is the customer wanting what they paid for and the ISP in the middle trying to keep everyone happy with equipment they don't have a lot of control over.
So maybe LLU is the future!

[#5]

The comment from the BT guy is not completely correct. The amount of equipment in exchanges is a fraction of what it use to be in the 70's and most exchanges I go into have stacks of space. If the exchanges did not have space BT will not be able to put the LLU equipment in. As for the equipment being old this only apply to the PSTN side on broadband side the equipment is being replaced with each new generation in speed, i.e. Fixed speed to DSL Max to WBC.  Also there are a limited number of companies that manufacture BB equipment so BT will source their equipment from the same manufacturer as the LLU companies, the difference is down to the DLM being run of the platform.

[#6]

Although having said that I wouldn't go to Sky, the thought of 17-18Mbps broadband is very tempting.............

Do they shape in their LLU areas?

[#7]

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BT will source their equipment from the same manufacturer as the LLU companies, the difference is down to the DLM being run of the platform.

But are BT getting new better equipment? It seems as if they can step back from it in a way and have no real incentive to improve things. Here is where the problem lies. ISP's are renting them off BT at wholesale prices so as far as BT are concerned they're generating a profit. I could easily see how an ISP getting in touch with them with problems is a nuisance and like wise they have set up a policy where if the was nothing down to them they can bill you for the call out hence cutting down the amount of people complaining over nothing.
The ISP on the other hand has to deal with the customer as they were the ones who promised them whatever speed which is a job I don't envy. Now the grey area with BT is that firstly you and your isp need to prove there is a problem first needing some work on both parties and to compound the problem even further what BT classes has acceptable is considerably lower than ISP's advertise.
These are very general terms, for instance I am on 8meg broadband, now BT says I should get 3.5meg on my line, my actual throughput is average 2.5meg.
Where do I start? Could be BT machines changing my IP profile when I get disconnected or their flaky wiring to my house, could be PN not shaping traffic properly could even be me with my equipment which is generally considered to be the first port of call. Ultimately no one will take control of the situation because BT check mate you by saying that's acceptable on your line.
PN seem to have a lot of people here that know a little bit about broadband probably because they had to be found, I have been with them many years and I think this year is the first time I have seen an advert on TV and once on the side of a bus. So a lot of people who use them do it because of their policy on shaping because lets face it if you just want broadband they're not the cheapest.
Having said that imagine the situation from somebody who knows nothing about BB, only thing they would see is the 8meg in big shiny letters and an online adsl speed tester saying 2.5meg,
So LLU seems to have the advantage in everything an end user wants from their adsl, it is generally better faster equipment, it's cheaper and it doesn't seem, all though I could be wrong to suffer from the same IP profiling which so many people hate.
BUT julesandsand has it the nail right on the head, once everyone takes advantage of this will the ISP look after the traffic on there. We know that PN do. Some of the bigger players who seem to be first in on the exchanges are the ones that have been notorious in the past for not giving a toss about their customers.
Will more LLU take the pressure off BT's equipment making it better for us? God knows there's too many variables.
Pay's your money and takes your chance I guess.

 

[#8]

My opinion is it's not the front end equipment but the back haul that dictate how BT manage the line. BT does not want a significant amount of traffic being retransmitted data because of errors. So they will restrict the end users line speed to reduce the error rate. With 21CN WBC this is done by applying banded profiles. It seem that LLU does not worry about error rates but the maximum sync speed.

[#9]

True, Sky for instance (Sorry for always referring to them but they are the only real alternative price wise in my exchange) will test you line for 10 days then set your sync speed. You can then ring them an ask for it to be increased by 1meg. This may I guess in general give you a better download speed but may cause disconnections. On LLU you maybe can live with that but with BT they won't let you they will auto reduce your sync speed like you rightly say.
If you get too frequent disconnections you would have to ring them and ask to be profiled back down to stabilise the line leaving you back where you started with roughly the speeds you have now.
Tricky one.
So for Jules I think its suck it and see, only way would be to try it and see how it works.

[#10]

See my other thread re. router attenuation. Because I was messing around with a new router and disconnected several times in one day my speed dropped by 30%. At least I think that's why my speed has dropped, presumably someone/spmething thought my connection was unstable.

[#11]

Looking at your other post you seem to be doing a lot of connections while swapping equipment about and trying new things. I find when trying to solve anything of this nature best way is to not have plugged in anything that may cause problems and leave it for a few days even a week while PN are aware of the problem so they are monitoring it.
I can't get are you saying that you are already on LLU?

[#12]

Not at the moment. Will be in about a week.

[#13]

Ok I will be interested to see how you get on. I have to be blunt with you though here m8. Looking at your other post it would at first glance appear that you have a problem of some description.
I hope changing providers will be better for you but any isp will only give you as good as you can receive. A lot of stuff I have give my pennies worth on would be in the case of someone with no problems pound for pound would get a better download speed through LLU. If you have a fault at your end while swapping over chances are you are going to have the same problem with someone else.
I hope that it's not the case as I am in the same boat as you, I am going to make sure that any of the slow speeds I am experiencing are not down to me first before considering moving. That's not to say I'm going to use PN to source the problem then go, I have had many good years here.
I am on Pro account which is totally unrestricted at all times of the day speeds but have a cap on usage. I don't really get the benefit from uncapped speeds if my full throttle speed is 1meg slower than on LLU. Plus its £8.00 pm cheaper and the usage is unlimited, before anyone throws up a usage allowance policy by unlimited I mean in my life. I don't even use the 20 gig or something that I get now.
My options are change to a newer PN package which would make my monthly fee go up or change to a LLU provider and hopefully get better speeds, a new router (if that is my problem :-\) and cheaper than I'm paying now.
Having said that if somehow BT and PN can get me the speeds I used to be used to it's a better the devil you know situation.
I'll be watching to see how you get on, on the bright side I have seen many occasions where people have been blaming routers, noise, BT, exchanges their isp and then when they changed everything was sorted, fingers crossed you will be one of them.