Commissioning new broadband
Thanks Oldjim and Adam. I appreciate that Plusnet don't have sophisticated line testing facilities because that's basically BT Wholesale's job, but I know they do have some rudimentary facility because they've been able to test my line and tell me they were seeing a permanent loop on it. Not sure if there are checks of a similar rudimentary nature they could do on the broadband. Must surely be some way of checking the status of a line's ADSL when it's supposed to be sync'd, for example?
I'm surprised some rudimentary checks aren't made by Plusnet at the time of commissioning a new setup, but if that's the case, how about BT Wholesale? What should they do to prove that a newly configured setup is working before handing it over to Plusnet and the customer?
I'm surprised some rudimentary checks aren't made by Plusnet at the time of commissioning a new setup, but if that's the case, how about BT Wholesale? What should they do to prove that a newly configured setup is working before handing it over to Plusnet and the customer?
Hi there,
Without wanting to come across as being defensive (which would be pointless really!)
, it's a decent enough system and not really rudimentary in its nature. Once a line has been transferred to us then we can perform diagnostics to a good level if needed, for both phone and broadband issues.
I'm not aware that any ISP would be able to test a line that's not in their ownership to be honest but I can't see why that should be an issue as any problems could be broached with the current ISP. Besides that there distinctions between the systems and processes used for the provisioning of services and dealing with faults and issues with one tends to prevent the other which is another reason these are done separately.
Adam
Without wanting to come across as being defensive (which would be pointless really!)
, it's a decent enough system and not really rudimentary in its nature. Once a line has been transferred to us then we can perform diagnostics to a good level if needed, for both phone and broadband issues.I'm not aware that any ISP would be able to test a line that's not in their ownership to be honest but I can't see why that should be an issue as any problems could be broached with the current ISP. Besides that there distinctions between the systems and processes used for the provisioning of services and dealing with faults and issues with one tends to prevent the other which is another reason these are done separately.
Adam
Quote from: _Adam_Walker_ Without wanting to come across as being defensive (which would be pointless really!)
Thanks Adam. No, you don't sound defensive. I'm glad to learn that Plusnet has some decent enough testing tools at its disposal. That's obviously good news for customers when any fault situation arises. My concern though, is focussed more on the issue of why those testing tools apparently aren't used for checking out new customers' lines around the time those lines are reconfigured for the start of Plusnet services. At least that's what I understood you were saying in your earlier reply at 10:50am today.
Quote I'm not aware that any ISP would be able to test a line that's not in their ownership to be honest but I can't see why that should be an issue ...
No, I agree. That's not an issue for me. The issue that I'm getting at is when a new customer places an order for service with Plusnet and BTw then have to check and possibly reconfigure the customer's existing line to provide that service. There comes a point when BTw have completed any reconfiguration work and they are ready to hand the line over to Plusnet to start providing the new services for their new customer. My issue is about Plusnet apparently not doing any checks at all at this handover time to make sure that BTw have done a good job and are giving Plusnet a line that's good for both broadband and phone. I can't understand why, since you say Plusnet have decent testing tools at their disposal, they don't use them at this stage to do one or two basic checks on the new line.
Quote ..... Besides that there distinctions between the systems and processes used for the provisioning of services and dealing with faults
Right! Now we're starting to get somewhere!! My above concern is all about the processes used for the provisioning of services, not about faults. I'm asking what tests are done once BTw say a line is now ready for Plusnet to start providing service on it, and who does these tests?
Quote .... issues with one tends to prevent the other which is another reason these are done separately.
Yes of course, proper provisioning processes and testing should prevent any malfunctions from arising once your new customer has been cut into service. Please can you enlighten me a little on what these tests actually are?
+ John
Thanks Anotherone. This is starting to get quite interesting 
Me too, I suppose I was trying to keep this on a somewhat hypothetical level rather than go too deeply into the specifics 'cos my aim here was to establish the general principles about commissioning new services, rather than to solve my specific problem.
Sorry! My fault for being somewhat vague.
Closer, but not quite! My phone line was working fine with previous supplier BT, but it was only a simple phone; no broadband. So when Plusnet ordered BTw to reconfigure my line to add broadband, that's when the permanent loop appeared. My location is quite remote and I believe my BT phone was working via some kind of old long-line pair-gain equipment, so in order to get broadband working BTw had to reconfigure my line with a more modern alternative capable of supporting both phone and broadband. Probably reterminated it in our local recently fibre-connected cabinet instead of in the much more distant building where the exchange half of my old pair-gain equipment was located.
Now this is where the fun starts
The customer half of the old pair-gain equipment (call it CHOPG for short) was at the DP quite close to my place, and although the exchange end of my line had been reterminated on new broadband-equipped gear, the CHOPG was still connected on my end. Now pair-gain equipment is a kind of multiplex, and on the exchange side of the CHOPG there'd be a line transformer. A line transformer looks like a loop. Half a pair-gain device like this obviously can't work without its matching exchange end, so all the new exchange equipment could see down my line was a permanent loop. No phone, no broadband, just a loop.
I firmly believe that it was in this half-completed state that BTw handed my line over to Plusnet to provide my new service. BTw simply forgot to remove their CHOPG. Obviously some rudimentary checks on the line by Plusnet would have easily identified this cock-up, and the job could have been handed back to BTw to fix there and then, but that didn't happen, and I believe it should have. This is why I'm advocating that Plusnet ought to do some rudimentary commissioning checks whenever they take on a new customer and changes have to be done on the line to make the new service possible. Of course BTw should test their own work, too, but that's another story.
So why didn't I notice that my phone had stopped working? Well I wasn't there, and in fact nobody was for quite some time. I'd previously asked Plusnet's call centre when I first signed up whether there was any need for me to be present at the time the broadband or phone were cut into service, and they assured me there wasn't, so I took them at their word. Weeks actually passed before anyone realised the phone wasn't working, and it was only after all this time that Plusnet found there was a permanent loop on the line.
After yet another couple of weeks, BTw eventually came to the DP and removed the CHOPG and from then-on everything worked fine.
Well my broadband service was supposed to start 14 days before my phone service was supposed to be cutover, but as I say, no-one was there at the time to notice things weren't working. I use the word "supposed" because none of it actually started working until a month later when BTw came to finish their uncompleted work.
I started this thread to try and clarify what (if any) testing procedures are used by Plusnet when lines that were working with another provider, have had to be reconfigured by BTw to make them work with Plusnet and broadband. To my mind Plusnet ought to at least do some rudimentary checks to verify BTw's changes will give a new Plusnet customer a system that actually works. After all BTw are only human, and as I've been describing, mistakes can be made.
Ah! Actually via a totally different system elsewhere. Nothing to do with Plusnet.
Anyway, thanks again for your good dialogue. Much appreciated.
+ John
dick:green Quote tag fixed.
Quote from: Anotherone
Quote from: sleepyjohn ...... Would Plusnet still try to put it into service with their new customer in blissful ignorance, or would there be some checking on Plusnet's part to ensure this couldn't happen?
Hmm. I'm well aware of that, I did try to keep things simple as you weren't explicit about your exact problem -
Me too, I suppose I was trying to keep this on a somewhat hypothetical level rather than go too deeply into the specifics 'cos my aim here was to establish the general principles about commissioning new services, rather than to solve my specific problem.
Quote the impression gained was that you possibly just had slow broadband, I was wondering if or how your phone service was affected and as you hadn't mentioned it, I was assuming that the loop was probably high enough resistance to not be giving an immediate problem - obviously incorrectly.
Sorry! My fault for being somewhat vague.
Quote What you seem to be saying is, you've been provisioned Broadband (and phone) and from day 1 none of it is working because of this line fault.
IIRC, no testing is done beforehand, if you have a line fault and move suppliers, you take your fault with you!
Closer, but not quite! My phone line was working fine with previous supplier BT, but it was only a simple phone; no broadband. So when Plusnet ordered BTw to reconfigure my line to add broadband, that's when the permanent loop appeared. My location is quite remote and I believe my BT phone was working via some kind of old long-line pair-gain equipment, so in order to get broadband working BTw had to reconfigure my line with a more modern alternative capable of supporting both phone and broadband. Probably reterminated it in our local recently fibre-connected cabinet instead of in the much more distant building where the exchange half of my old pair-gain equipment was located.
Now this is where the fun starts
The customer half of the old pair-gain equipment (call it CHOPG for short) was at the DP quite close to my place, and although the exchange end of my line had been reterminated on new broadband-equipped gear, the CHOPG was still connected on my end. Now pair-gain equipment is a kind of multiplex, and on the exchange side of the CHOPG there'd be a line transformer. A line transformer looks like a loop. Half a pair-gain device like this obviously can't work without its matching exchange end, so all the new exchange equipment could see down my line was a permanent loop. No phone, no broadband, just a loop.I firmly believe that it was in this half-completed state that BTw handed my line over to Plusnet to provide my new service. BTw simply forgot to remove their CHOPG. Obviously some rudimentary checks on the line by Plusnet would have easily identified this cock-up, and the job could have been handed back to BTw to fix there and then, but that didn't happen, and I believe it should have. This is why I'm advocating that Plusnet ought to do some rudimentary commissioning checks whenever they take on a new customer and changes have to be done on the line to make the new service possible. Of course BTw should test their own work, too, but that's another story.
So why didn't I notice that my phone had stopped working? Well I wasn't there, and in fact nobody was for quite some time. I'd previously asked Plusnet's call centre when I first signed up whether there was any need for me to be present at the time the broadband or phone were cut into service, and they assured me there wasn't, so I took them at their word. Weeks actually passed before anyone realised the phone wasn't working, and it was only after all this time that Plusnet found there was a permanent loop on the line.
After yet another couple of weeks, BTw eventually came to the DP and removed the CHOPG and from then-on everything worked fine.
Quote Perhaps a bit more info would be useful - When did your Broadband service startwas your Broadband Service with Plusnet activated?
When was your Phone Service transferred to Plusnet? Was your phone Service working when you left BT?
What exactly do you mean by "]after BT Wholesale have converted an exisitng old line for broadband to be added"
Well my broadband service was supposed to start 14 days before my phone service was supposed to be cutover, but as I say, no-one was there at the time to notice things weren't working. I use the word "supposed" because none of it actually started working until a month later when BTw came to finish their uncompleted work.
I started this thread to try and clarify what (if any) testing procedures are used by Plusnet when lines that were working with another provider, have had to be reconfigured by BTw to make them work with Plusnet and broadband. To my mind Plusnet ought to at least do some rudimentary checks to verify BTw's changes will give a new Plusnet customer a system that actually works. After all BTw are only human, and as I've been describing, mistakes can be made.
Quote Out of curiosity, how are you connecting & posting to the forum at present?
Ah! Actually via a totally different system elsewhere. Nothing to do with Plusnet.
Anyway, thanks again for your good dialogue. Much appreciated.
+ John
dick:green Quote tag fixed.
Many thanks, Anotherone, for your comprehensive and perceptive response. I've been mulling it all over, but still haven't quite decided what my next move, if any, should be. Anyway, let me now comment on the points you've made:
Spot on there! Plusnet have confirmed it definitely was a DACS RU half that BTw (or was it Openreach) forgot to remove from my line.
Yes indeed, but it hasn't been made clear to me whether Openreach actually forgot to do it, or whether BTw forgot to give them the job. The DACS EU would have been in an old building 4 miles away, but I suspect the line cutover would have been done in the recently fibre-connected local cabinet only a mile away down the road, so different staff involved and I'm not sure who is responsible for what. D'you think it would be Openreach who did my cutover in the cabinet, or do BTw have responsibility for the exchange side of cabinets when they contain line cards and fibre gear these days? I daresay the DACS EU half is still connected to the abandoned part of my line in the old building 4 miles away, and I'm guessing that the responsibility for that would have been under BTw, not Openreach. Someone certainly forgot all about the DACS, but who?
Yes, I agree that's true for the broadband part, but it wouldn't take much effort to do a simple line test on the telephone service. Check it shows a kick from the ring capacitor and make sure there's no loop or earth showing. Just a basic test, especially considering everyone should have been well aware the line was being cutover to a new route at the cabinet. Give the phone a ring, and if anyone answers, say "This is the Plusnet engineer checking your new line. I'm pleased to tell you that your phone has now been successfully changed over to service with us". Just a simple test with a nice confirmation for the customer thrown in.
Not for the broadband, no, but for the phone service where the changeover from the old provider is supposed to be seamless?
Well no one advised me that I was responsible for checking the system worked properly immediately after cutover. In fact I'd previously checked with the Plusnet call centre and told them nobody was going to be around at the cutover date, and they reassured me there was no problem with that. I assumed that some basic checks would be done from the exchange end, and indeed I received a rather misleading e-mail that made me think everything must be OK because it said my line speed was 21MB. I did think that was a bit odd when I knew no router was connected to the line at that time, but I gave Plusnet the benefit of the doubt and let it go.
I would agree if we were talking about extensive cooperation with the customer including maybe a home visit by an engineer to connect everything up like in the old days. But a simple basic phone line check and an e-mail or SMS to the customer saying words to the effect "We have connected your new broadband at our end now. Please connect up your router and let us know if you experience any problems". I don't see how introducing a procedure like that would cause a significant cost increase.
Because the cutover was at the cabinet and the DACS EU was back in the old building on a line that was going to be abandoned, nobody may have told Openreach there was a DACS involved. Maybe their linesman was just given a simple cabinet jumper change order?? I suppose it depends who was overall responsible for the cutover, and who keeps and checks the records.
Somebody should certainly have done a rudimentary check, but if neither BTw nor BTOR are responsible for the EU, then who is? BT? For that matter, as a general question, who is actually responsible for RUs?
Yes, I'm still mulling over whether doing that would be likely to achieve anything.
Hmmm... yes. Although I wasn't there to check it, I think I can safely conclude that the phone must have stopped working on the date my broadband was cutover in the cabinet, so my BT service was off for the 14 days up to my Plusnet phone cutover. Then my Plusnet phone service was off for another 17 days until the DACS RU was removed.
Plusnet initially only offered to refund me the 10 days from the date we reported the problem to them to the date the DACS RU was removed, but they've since increased that by another 7 days so they'll actually be refunding me for the whole 17 day period I was supposed to have a Plusnet phone service and didn't. On the whole that doesn't seem too bad.
Although I'm not excessively dissatisfied with Plusnet's refund offer, I do think there ought to be some repercussion on BTw for their sloppy handling of my DACS. The problem is that my case is a a bit weak because I wasn't there at the time to report these failings to my service, and I can hardly argue that I suffered hardship or damage from the lack of services when I wasn't even there! Given my further explanations here, can you envisage any way I could register my dissatisfaction with BTw without going through all the tedious procedure of bringing OFCOM in on it?
Yes you may. Thanks for the offer, but please take it that everything's working OK now.
Yes, they've now increased their offer of an initial 10 days' refund to 17 days. I haven't responded to their latest increase yet, as I'm still mulling over the possible options.
Once again many thanks for your helpful, perceptive and knowledgeable response. May I ask if you are just an enthusiastic voluntary Plusnet user and contributor to this forum, or are you are somehow officially connected with Plusnet? Whatever the situation is, I'm very happy with the advice you've been giving.
Quote from: Anotherone OK, it sounds to me like your line was on a DACS (link will give you some background info) where you would be sharing the pair from the exchange with another subscriber due to a shortage of cable pairs from the exchange to your location - not uncommon in more remote areas - and they tend to get upgraded as and when.
You have to be on your own pair for broadband as I expect you've appreciated.
Spot on there! Plusnet have confirmed it definitely was a DACS RU half that BTw (or was it Openreach) forgot to remove from my line.
Quote It sounds like BT Openreach (who are responsible for the last mile) did not do the job properly at the outset, and this is not the first time I've heard that for lines that have been on a DACS.
Yes indeed, but it hasn't been made clear to me whether Openreach actually forgot to do it, or whether BTw forgot to give them the job. The DACS EU would have been in an old building 4 miles away, but I suspect the line cutover would have been done in the recently fibre-connected local cabinet only a mile away down the road, so different staff involved and I'm not sure who is responsible for what. D'you think it would be Openreach who did my cutover in the cabinet, or do BTw have responsibility for the exchange side of cabinets when they contain line cards and fibre gear these days? I daresay the DACS EU half is still connected to the abandoned part of my line in the old building 4 miles away, and I'm guessing that the responsibility for that would have been under BTw, not Openreach. Someone certainly forgot all about the DACS, but who?
Quote As Adam Walker has already mentioned, it's not possible for ISPs/CPs to test lines that they aren't providing the service on, and in any event no-one can do a broadband test until you modem/router is on-line.
Yes, I agree that's true for the broadband part, but it wouldn't take much effort to do a simple line test on the telephone service. Check it shows a kick from the ring capacitor and make sure there's no loop or earth showing. Just a basic test, especially considering everyone should have been well aware the line was being cutover to a new route at the cabinet. Give the phone a ring, and if anyone answers, say "This is the Plusnet engineer checking your new line. I'm pleased to tell you that your phone has now been successfully changed over to service with us". Just a simple test with a nice confirmation for the customer thrown in.
Quote Also it wouldn't be practical for the ISP to test every new provide, as they don't know when you are going to "connect up"
Not for the broadband, no, but for the phone service where the changeover from the old provider is supposed to be seamless?
Quote and as you've mentioned you weren't there at the time the service was supposed to start. Because standard broadband is very much a "self install" these days - you connect up your end and check it works ok - the system relies on the customer to report a problem if things aren't working right.
Well no one advised me that I was responsible for checking the system worked properly immediately after cutover. In fact I'd previously checked with the Plusnet call centre and told them nobody was going to be around at the cutover date, and they reassured me there was no problem with that. I assumed that some basic checks would be done from the exchange end, and indeed I received a rather misleading e-mail that made me think everything must be OK because it said my line speed was 21MB. I did think that was a bit odd when I knew no router was connected to the line at that time, but I gave Plusnet the benefit of the doubt and let it go.
Quote If the onus was put on the supplier, the cost of providing broadband would be significantly higher (as it was in the early days) and I don't think anyone wants that.
I would agree if we were talking about extensive cooperation with the customer including maybe a home visit by an engineer to connect everything up like in the old days. But a simple basic phone line check and an e-mail or SMS to the customer saying words to the effect "We have connected your new broadband at our end now. Please connect up your router and let us know if you experience any problems". I don't see how introducing a procedure like that would cause a significant cost increase.
Quote Most provisions go without a hitch, but obviously with human failings, some go wrong. In this case it does sound as though Openreach failed to even carry out basic line checks when the work was supposedly completed. I don't call that human error, I call that sloppy and unprofessional practice.
Because the cutover was at the cabinet and the DACS EU was back in the old building on a line that was going to be abandoned, nobody may have told Openreach there was a DACS involved. Maybe their linesman was just given a simple cabinet jumper change order?? I suppose it depends who was overall responsible for the cutover, and who keeps and checks the records.
Quote There could be a case to argue that maybe BT Wholesale should have run a rudimentary check on the line as it was being converted from a DACS to standard line to make sure that Openreach had completed the work satisfactorily. That's rather a complex issue as the EU has no direct contact with either BTw or BTOR.
Somebody should certainly have done a rudimentary check, but if neither BTw nor BTOR are responsible for the EU, then who is? BT? For that matter, as a general question, who is actually responsible for RUs?
Quote You can try asking Plusnet to pursue that with BTw, but I suspect it won't get very far.
Yes, I'm still mulling over whether doing that would be likely to achieve anything.
Quote But, you were without a phone service (then with BT Retail) until OR came and completed the job, in my eyes you are owed some partila line rental refund from BT Retail up until the transfer to Plusnet and also from Plusnet until it was/is working. Also a full refund of any Broadband charges up until the time the service was capable of working.
Hmmm... yes. Although I wasn't there to check it, I think I can safely conclude that the phone must have stopped working on the date my broadband was cutover in the cabinet, so my BT service was off for the 14 days up to my Plusnet phone cutover. Then my Plusnet phone service was off for another 17 days until the DACS RU was removed.
Plusnet initially only offered to refund me the 10 days from the date we reported the problem to them to the date the DACS RU was removed, but they've since increased that by another 7 days so they'll actually be refunding me for the whole 17 day period I was supposed to have a Plusnet phone service and didn't. On the whole that doesn't seem too bad.
Quote Because BT Openreach (monopoly supplier except for Virgin Cable) are responsible for the last mile, and BTw providers of products to a number of ISPs/CPs are both regulated by OFCOM, I'd suggest you try complaining too them about the poor performance of Openreach an BT Wholesale. They may likely say they don't want to know and to deal with your Provider, but just get difficult with them, remind them that they are the regulator and that you want your complaint logged and a reference number for the complaint. If you really want to make life exciting because you don't get a suitable response from OFCOM, then write to your MP and the Secretary of State about OFCOM's inadequate regulation of them. Until more people complain in these situations, things won't change.
Although I'm not excessively dissatisfied with Plusnet's refund offer, I do think there ought to be some repercussion on BTw for their sloppy handling of my DACS. The problem is that my case is a a bit weak because I wasn't there at the time to report these failings to my service, and I can hardly argue that I suffered hardship or damage from the lack of services when I wasn't even there! Given my further explanations here, can you envisage any way I could register my dissatisfaction with BTw without going through all the tedious procedure of bringing OFCOM in on it?
Quote So do I take from your last post that all is working OK now and you have acceptable performance? Say so when you post back, if not we could have a look at some stats and stuff and see what we could suggest.
Yes you may. Thanks for the offer, but please take it that everything's working OK now.
Quote I would assume Plusnet have refunded you some money, if not that is an issue to take up with them - it's up to them to seek redress with their suppliers.
Yes, they've now increased their offer of an initial 10 days' refund to 17 days. I haven't responded to their latest increase yet, as I'm still mulling over the possible options.
Once again many thanks for your helpful, perceptive and knowledgeable response. May I ask if you are just an enthusiastic voluntary Plusnet user and contributor to this forum, or are you are somehow officially connected with Plusnet? Whatever the situation is, I'm very happy with the advice you've been giving.