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Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Community Veteran
Posts: 3,789
Registered: 08-06-2007

Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Available here
Seems like this approach is going to win them lots of awards and customers!  (not)
B.
20 REPLIES
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Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Yep, and once again, the neighbour who is with Virgin spent all weekend round at ours because its the only way she can get any sensible download speeds.
I feel a referral coming on!
pierre_pierre
Grafter
Posts: 19,757
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Barry You should go over there and moderate the swearing  Crazy
Community Veteran
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Registered: 06-11-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Quote

Virgin spent all weekend round at ours because its the only way she can get any sensible download speeds.

Who`s a lucky boy then?  Wink
N/A

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

I was out with the missus until Sun lunchtime, then out playing golf yesterday so never saw her.
The cats were chuffed though, they enjoy the company.
Firejack
Grafter
Posts: 921
Registered: 26-06-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

I find this whole net neutrality issue pure comedy. When will the Internet Industry finally realise it isn't delivering the service its customers want or expect and upgrade their networks?
VM is one of those company's that for years under its previous names has been pushing out its Super Fast Broadband media machine. Telling peoples they'll be able to download and stream video faster then ever before. Now they have gone the complete opposite direction and are saying you cannot download and stream video with the Super Fast Broadband connection you paid for. Pure stupidity. What is insane is the people from VM saying this seem to think its everyone else's fault. Now they are talking about charging media providers which is one of the main driving reason people are adopting broadband. Isn't that like biting the hand that feeds you?
I'm going to stand firm on the belief ISP's need to upgrade their network to meet the demands of their customers. The technology exists for faster backhaul links. All it requires is ISP's to put their money in their pocket and upgrade. Though this probably should be done by the Wholesale providers like BT. Who have taken £100's from ISP's over the years for each Broadband customer from ISP's but not invested enough in making faster backhaul links available to ISP's. Why are BT still selling capacity in 155Mbps segments when we should be talking in the Gbps and probably in the not to distant future Tbps for BT Centrals.
Community Veteran
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Registered: 10-04-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Just to make sure your argument holds water - I trust you are proposing that ISPs put the cost of peoples connection up to pay for this investment.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
Firejack
Grafter
Posts: 921
Registered: 26-06-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Well no. Technology doesn't work like say a Gas supply. In Gas you have a physical item, the Gas, that you need to buy to feed into your network. The Internet isn't like that. You pipes are able to be filled with data that costs no more or less depending on how much capacity in those pipes is used. Unlike Gas which is more expensive the more capacity you use because you need more Gas to fill the pipes.

Also my thinking for the actual network links is...
If I upgrade my home network from 100Mbps to 1000Mbps it costs no more to run then it originally did and the only cost is upgrading the Switch on each end. A 1000Mbps would replace the 100Mbps switch in the market for the same price the 100Mbps was a year or so earlier. Therefore there is no additional as if you had bought a 100Mbps switch for £50 your same £50 now gets you 1000Mbps.
My point being why buy old technology if you can buy new which is faster?
The money for the upgrades should come from BT. After all the ISP's biggest cost is bandwidth and in Plusnets case they are limited to 1 supplier in BT who charge a lot more then they should. 622Mbps links are expensive and slow compared to 10Gbps links which overall have a much cheaper per 1Mbps fee over a month.
If BT started selling 10Gbps BT Centrals Plusnets costs would go down dramatically and they'd probably be able to reduce costs and give us more bandwidth in our allowance.

Also if I was to add a network connection to the shed at the bottom of the garden so the Gnomes can surf he internet and look cool. It would cost no more to physically dig the trench and lay 10 cables instead of 1 other then the actual cost of the cable itself. In other words with a bit of forward planning an ISP could 'futureproof' there network, at least in the short term, for very little extra investment that would only need to be connected if the extra bandwidth was needed.
A very simple way of looking at it but I've read nothing here or on TBB or anywhere really to suggest this isn't how things work.
Community Veteran
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Registered: 10-04-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

As I suspected your argument doesn't hold water. As you picked gas an an analogy lets think about it properly.
Lets say the gas pipe to an estate is capable of carrying 100 litres per second and that at peak use times in the winter it's running at 75% capacity.
Now lets assume that gas pricing is changed so that there is a fixed monthly charge and no additional charge for the gas you use. Great thinks everyone, and turns their thermostat up by 5 degrees which puts up maximum demand by 50%.
Result the supply pipe isn't big enough, so either everyone sees reduced pressure and can't get all the gas they'd like or the gas supplier has to spend a shed load of money putting in a bigger pipe. Obviously they are going to pass the cost of that on somehow.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
Firejack
Grafter
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Registered: 26-06-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Weeeee this is going to get confusing fast...  Smiley
Let me try to explain again. Will make it short to avoid having to think to hard and burn off some of the energy I just got from my Roast Chicken dinner  Cool
If we were to compare the price of equipment and installation of one 10Gbps link to the price of equipment and installation of 16 622Mbps links. The cost per 1Mbps would be cheaper on the 10Gbps link. Correct?
So Plusnet are buying bandwidth at a premium cost. Instead of the best value for money. Which is why we are limited to such small bandwidth allowances.
Community Veteran
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Registered: 10-04-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

But equipment is in place already and has been paid for so you can't think in terms of the difference of the original cost - unless of course you are going to offer to buy all the replaced equipment at original cost!
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
Firejack
Grafter
Posts: 921
Registered: 26-06-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Ok thats a good point.
Lets think about the next 10Gbps of bandwidth Plusnet is going to need -- which we all know they will.
What would be the price of 16 622Mbps links compared to 1 10 Gbps link be? Surely then we'd see the 10 Gbps link is cheaper.
I could well be wrong. Doesn't seem to be prices for this sort of thing online.. even Google Shopping  Cheesy
If indeed it is cheaper. The question then is why aren't BT Centrals available as a cheaper (per 1Mbps) 10 Gbps product?
Community Veteran
Posts: 26,449
Thanks: 692
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Registered: 10-04-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Just a minor problem - do you remember when Plusnet had a mixture of Redbacks and Junipers?
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
Firejack
Grafter
Posts: 921
Registered: 26-06-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

Ok ok.. err. What if....  Wink
For Plusnets next 622Mbps link we compared the cost per 1Mbps between adding 1 extra 622Mbps link and and 1 10Gbps link and decommissioning the entire now obsolete 622Mbps link platform. Is it any cheaper?  Grin
James
Grafter
Posts: 21,036
Registered: 04-04-2007

Re: Virgin.net's stance on Net Neutrality

I see the point that you are trying to make, but have you considered the costs that we will have lost by having free capacity throughout the day?  That's part of the way that our free off peak allowances work - we don't charge when there's space in our network.  We wouldn't just fill a 10Gbps chunk like that.
Unless it offers easy segmentation as per the current 155/622 model.