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Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

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Dabbler
Posts: 14
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Registered: ‎11-12-2017

Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

Hi,
I see from reading the thread that you have reverted back to Windows 10 1703 and that this has fixed your software issue.
That will work as a temporary solution, but probably only a temporary one.
Even if you find a workaround for Windows 10 1709 there will be another version 6 months after that, and another 6 months after that... and the updates will keep coming... And rightly so, while the 'new features' may or may not always be good ideas, the security fixes are essential and the biggest thing you can do to keep your system secure.
Unfortunately you are still trying to use a 17 year old piece of software, worse one that must connect to the internet as part of its function. Even if you manage to keep it compatible with the OS it's probable that you will start soon to have issues [I am surprised you haven't had them already, probably indicating that you are using email providers with outdated/poor security practices] actually sending/receiving emails as servers slowly update to more secure encryption standards you are not compatible with.

As painful as it is I really would recommend migrating over to something else while your current system still works and you can run the two in parallel, and so you don't have a situation where your old system finally dies and you have to build a new system from scratch amidst the ruins of the old.

However if you are determined to keep this ancient piece of software running, my advice would be do not let this one ancient piece of software compromise your entire computer by dragging your entire computer into the past just so you remain compatible with it.

 

The solution for this problem is called a Virtual Machine or VM. They are a 'little' technical to set up, but a friendly local technical support company should be able to so it for you if you don't feel up to following a few YouTube tutorials [the software required is free for home use] and what it will enable you to do is create a virtual computer that runs on as a peice of software on your real computer onto which you install an older OS [say windows XP or better Windows 7] for which you have the installation media and license and you install and setup your ancient Outlook 2000 on this virtual machine.
Then you have the peace of mind to know that this will never get broken by a windows update because those OS's don't get them anymore, and you get some extra security around your ancient email program as it is running inside the VM which helps isolate it from the rest of your computer.

This is still not as good as having an up-to-date email client [which you could also run in a VM for security if you wanted] but it does mean you can keep up with the latest windows versions and the protections that offers.

The subscription model as annoying as it can seem actual solves this problem because you are constantly and smoothly kept up to date and so you never have the situation of becoming years out-of-date and having to do jarring and costly upgrades to get back in sync. This is THE big advantage of something like Office 365, over older versions of Office from a conceptual standpoint. Unfortunately there have been a number of radical redesigns between 2000 and the latest 365, which would be deeply confusing and very jarring.
If you are not looking to make such a jump, I would recommend 2007 as being a longer lasting upgrade as it is 'only' 10 years out-of-date and was the last version of office before the radical redesign overhauls started.
Having said that, I was starting to make plans for retiring Office 2007 on the machines I support for simply being too old and past-it... I'm noticing issues on THAT with compatibility with mail servers, so I really can't stress enough that while a VM will solve your problems making outlook run on windows 10 quite nicely... nothing will stop the fact that at some point this software will cease to be viable... and it might be quite soon.

Convincing Illusion

If seeing is beleiving... Then what happens when what you're seing is an Illusion?
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Community Veteran
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Registered: ‎14-07-2009

Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

I've never used a Virtual Machine myself, although I can see that they would be very useful in the right circumstances.  But I have read several articles about setting one up and they never confront the issue of where you find that spare Windows licence for the older version of Windows that you are going to virtualise.  An OEM licence is supposed to be limited to the original hardware (motherboard) it came with so you really need a licence for a retail version of Windows.  You would only have one of those if you had built your own computer at some time in the past, been honest enough to pay more for the correct licence and then abandoned the computer (but kept the installation media).  Or you could buy a Windows licence if you are prepared to purchase on the grey market.       

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Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

I would question why on earth would you want to run a virtual machine using desktop Windows as the underlying OS,  Linux would be more efficient, use less resources, be more responsive, easier to maintain, it's free, doesn't require a license, and has better hardware driver support included in the installation media than Windows.

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Anonymous
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Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

I agree with your comments @ReedRichards, but a licence can be obtained quite cheaply if you know where to look, and I’m not referring to any off white market places either.

I bought these:

Windows 10 from Amazon
as you can see on Amazon a few of months ago for the very purpose of using on VMs as they were cheap. I took the opinion that I had the protection of Amazon behind me should they turn out to be anything other than legitimate. Both of these have been used, and registered with Microsoft and thankfully work as expected.

Windows 10 on Virtual Machine
In answer @Nibiru’s question, I use Windows 10 in a VM as I write software for it, and I use a VM so I don’t need to have another device in order to do this. As far as performance is concerned I have no complaints running Windows 10 under Parallels on my iMac far from it in fact

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Community Veteran
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Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

The trouble with Linux is that you need to know quite a bit about Linux in order to install and use it.  It might well repay the effort of learning what you need to know but there is a learning curve.  You can buy a machine running Windows 10, take it out of the box and use it.  Your Windows 10 computer will be maintenance free - except when updates wreck your old software.   

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Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

@Anonymous, can you use an OEM copy of Windows in a virtual machine without contravening the Licence Agreement?  

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

Well in all honesty @ReedRichards that I do not know. The hardware it is used on certainly can’t be deemed OEM but in defence of my own actions I thought it better to have a ‘real paid for’ licence than source anything else.

I don’t know what information Microsoft sends when it’s registering a product but if it is, as I suspect, hardware device identifiers then I am sure they know that this is an Apple device and that it is also a virtualised platform. But what I do know is that Microsoft chose to accept my registration so I am happy with that, so until I am told otherwise, I am more than willing to continue to use it.

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Dabbler
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Registered: ‎11-12-2017

Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

@ReedRichards The license key typically stuck to the side/bottom of your old machine [or in the CD/DVD case if you go back far enough]  will activate an old copy of Windows in a VM just fine.
MS knows people use VM's for testing/writing software/Bug Hunting/etc and as far as I can tell any valid license key for your version of Windows will activate it in a VM. The one they really care about is the one running on the metal.

And btw if you build your own PC you can still happily and legally purchase an OEM version of Windows, and even legally move it from machine to machine... As long as it is only ever installed on ONE machine at a time and as long as you the builder of the PC [the OEM] remain in ownership at all times. If you sell it THAT is when it legally gets locked to that one machine and is not supposed to ever go onto anything else. Because the law is weird. You don't get [all] those restrictions with the retail license which is why it costs more, but regular self builders are still entitled to class themselves as an OEM if they build their own PC and as such buy an OEM copy of Windows. And such a legally purchased copy of windows will activate in a VM. If MS didn't want people to use OEM's in a VM [which is easily detectable] then they wouldn't activate.
As it is MS encourages people through their insider program to install multiple copies of insider build Windows on VM's because they want people to bug hunt and test things. The number of people who will ever use such technology is such a tiny fraction of their market share they are just not worried about it from a piracy standpoint.
Which shows they have their priorities the right way around.
From a practical standpoint VM's the way they typically get used get created and destroyed so frequently that if people had to pay for every license it would be so ludicrously expensive that everyone would just pirate the OS anyway.

In the specific case here, the person with the issue would still be running their [presumably] fully legit paid for windows kept up-to-date on the metal, and would then be running an old out-of-date [but also paid for] OEM version of whichever iteration of Windows [it could be Linux, but the reason for not suggesting that is that someone who is saying that they can't move off of Office 2000 because the change would be too great isn't about to sit down and learn how to use Linux. The idea is to MINIMISE the learning curve, not make it bigger to satisfy your own beliefs about what computer systems people should use @techiesWhoShouldKnowBetter]

If seeing is beleiving... Then what happens when what you're seing is an Illusion?
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Pro
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Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

Convin_Illusion

Thanks for a very interesting post.  What you recommend is good advice and I cannot argue against it.  The trouble is that I do not have the time / inclination to do all that.  I just want to keep things simple, and I know from other postings on this subject that I am not alone in using legacy software.  The trouble with new software is all the irrelevant bloatware that comes with it,and the unnecessary distractions dreamt up by a millenial nerd.  Your suggestion of subscription software is yet another facet of the throw-away society of which I am not a fan.

I am set in my ways, admittedly, but quite content being so !  For instance, I do not "do" social networking of any sort, because I have actually got a life and my sort of networking really is social, face-to-face.  I do not want my software to intrude into my life.  I think of it just as a tool.  I am an old dog who does not want to learn new tricks.  For instance, my graphics editor came bundled with my first digital camera and ran on Windows 95 - it still works fine on W10, thank you, and I defy you to find anything with the latest version of Photoshop that I cannot do my old W95 software that I would ever want to do.  And, I should add, I use it daily for one reason or another.

As it happens, I have now successfully installed Outlook 2000 on all four of my W10 machines, including the Lenovo which I had trouble with earlier. "Impécable", as the French would say.  I just hope that my old Office products soldier on until I am past the point of being able to physically use them anymore.  It is also interesting that those products never worked on Windows 7 or 8.  MicroSoft realised their mistake in Windows 10 and introduced backward compatibility for legacy products.  Similarly, they have recognised that same need in the 1709 update, because they expressly invite you to return to the previous version (1703) at the touch of a button if software does not run.  That has never been the case before !

Progress is not the same thing thing as change for the sake of change, which is all too often modern practice.  Progress is about building on what has gone before - that is why we still have the internal combustion engine, an 18th century invention, and cars built at the turn of the century before last still run on our roads using the same fuel as they did then.  I am a great supporter of innovation, but new technology should build on what went before and not re-invent the wheel.

I know it is a cliché, but let's not "fix it if it ain't broke".

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !


@shermans wrote:
... For instance, I do not "do" social networking of any sort, because I have actually got a life and my sort of networking really is social, face-to-face. ...

I know this reply is off topic but I have to agree with your statement @shermans. I find 'social media' to be a poison as it has ruined the meaning of social intercourse and if the truth be told has a lot to answer to.

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Dabbler
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Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

Hey I don't use social media either. For example I have facebook's servers blocked in my hosts file, my firewalls, Ublock Origin, NoScript, Privacy Badger, Ghostery... and I've reinstalled and setup classic windows games/paint/calculator/media centre/Photo Viewer/etc all for people who didn't like the new windows versions so I understand and sympathise with where you are comming from.

The trouble is that of all the bits of Office software Outlook is the one that deals with the internet.
Useing old Outlook [like useing ancinet Internet Explorer] is a massive security risk.
Unless you are incredibly lucky it will someday turn around and bite you on the ass.

Useing up-to-date software regularly patched is the sigle best thing you can do for computer security on your home machine.

It's far from the only thing of course but it's number one on every seriouse security experts list.

Placing your software inside VM's would atleast help contain the risk and reduce the chance that a compromise would take out your entire machine. As well as reducing the risk of updates breaking your out-of date software.

There are security experts who recomend putting your email client inside a VM anyway, for exactly that reason, it helps contain the risks from dodgy emails.

I do know the cliche if it aint broke don't fix it... I'm sorry to say but while it may not seem like it to you, from a security standpoint your software is broke.

The fact that it appears to be all working fine is lulling you into a false sense of security right up to the point where it catestrophically fails.

And i've been there for the tears when that happens, I've seen peoples whole lives wrapped up in Outlook... Old Outlook does not recover well from disaster.

So at the very very least, my advice is for the love of whatever you hold dear, make sure you have regular UP-TO DATE FULL OFFLINE backups that you know you can do complete from scratch in the event of disaster recoverys from. [and have actually tested this, which is the step people invariable miss out]

And I wish you good luck.

If seeing is beleiving... Then what happens when what you're seing is an Illusion?
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Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

Yes, security is no doubt a weakness.  I do rely on Plusnet Firewall weeding out the worst attacks at first level.  I used to use an anti-virus - AVG and Avast! principally - but after Windows 10 was released, the consensus of opinion was that AV software performed no better than the W10 built-in Defender in most tests, and therefore I stopped using AV except for Windows Defender.  I do regularly run Malwarebytes but that could be shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.  I am very careful about opening attachments unless I really know they are safe and delete anything else.

It would be interesting to hear from Plusnet staff if they are monitoring this thread.

And on the subject of back-up, I back-up my data almost daily in the conventional manner onto an external disk; I have no concerns there at all.  But system files are a different kettle of fish.  My systems are totally exposed, I must admit.  I made a Windows Image of all of my machines last February.  But to be honest, I would not know how to recover any of them, and in any case the images are way out of date now ! This is a subject I really would benefit from some advice on - how best to back up the SYSTEM effectively and simply with the minimum fuss today and on to what media.  Are DVDs large enough for this purpose today, because my external hard disk  (1 terrabyte) is getting very full with data.

On this I really would appreciate some help !

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Aspiring Hero
Posts: 12,482
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Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

You can get Virtual image files of MS from https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/

They expire after 90 days, though.

"In The Beginning Was The Word, And The Word Was Aardvark."

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Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

I just visited a computer that had been running Outlook 2002 (AKA Outlook XP) under Windows 10.  This stopped working after the Windows 10 1709 update.  I tried a repair but it made no difference.

When you try to launch Outlook you get an error message:

Cannot start Microsoft Outlook.  Outlook requires Microsoft Outlook Express 4.01 or greater.  You can install Outlook Express by running IE5Setup from the IE5 folder located on your CD or through the Windows Update website.

I have not worked out if anything can be done about this but I did find a number of free utilities that can read Outlook files (.pst) such as this one: https://gallery.technet.microsoft.com/office/Free-PST-File-Viewer-to-8a3f8df6

Edit: To clarify the context of this message, this would seem to be the same error as encountered by Shermans but for Outlook 2002 rather than Outlook 2000.  So it looks as if any version of Outlook before 2003 is not going to work under Windows 10 1709.

 

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Re: Latest Windows 10 Update 1709 - Help please !

as a side issue - even 2003 doesn't work quite the same as on previous builds

by tweaking the registry I used to be able to open zip files from within emails but that tweak no longer works as the shell command in the registry has either been changed or removed

this key is the one which has been mucked up ShellCompatibility\Applications\outlook.exe