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Loss of output

DS
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Registered: 06-01-2017

Re: Loss of output

@SteveA I wonder if PN can gain access to the raw data for your box...? Surely something must be being triggered on that system too

@jafreer Not sure if you and I have crossed paths in other posts, but if not - PN are aware that certain types of PLA's do NOT work well at all with YV. Although I've connected my YV box direct to the PNH1, we still use the PLA's that I blagged from BT when I was on their BTV box. They are from 2014. I guess yours are not BT issued one's?

jafreer
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Registered: 13-10-2012

Re: Loss of output

I have tried both BT and TP-Link PLAs. They can work solidly for a while, then you get some breakups, or a black screen. It is not consistent enough to be a proper solution. I suspect there is some mains interference that is causing the problem but I have tried moving things around and have carried out a bit of experimentation, but I just can't get it to be rock solid.

The alternative is to run an ethernet cable, which would be a total pain, but it could be done. One last thing I have tried today is to use wi-fi. The problem is that I have a Hub One and that doesn't support multicast over wi-fi. So I have used a TP-Link pocket router/access point connected to the Hub One to create another wifi network just for the YV box. The TP-Link does support multicast. At the YV box end I have another one of those TP-Link devices configured to receive the wi-fi, and put it on an ethernet cable.

Well the setup initially works. Will it be rock solid? Time will tell. I only got it running today. If it is not solid, then the last resort is running the ethernet cable.

This is just for multicast (PN subscription channels). Unicast (Iplayers etc) work fine with PLAs. The issue is that multicast is more sensitive to dropped packets and doesn't buffer enough to cope with it.

I will post back on how well this wi-fi setup works but I am not holding my breath. Next stop may be buying a reel of CAT5 and a crimping tool!

DS
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Registered: 06-01-2017

Re: Loss of output

I guess some of this depends on which BT PLA's they are ... early versions had a serious design flaw and were recalled (or sold on ebay by sellers after the recall and therefore they knew that they were dangerous yet still tried to rid themselves of excess stock - tut tut), others sold by BT could be accessed using the manufacturers own software and tweaked to be really good, and others were sold by BT but were locked down by BT created soft/firmware. And like a pillock I swapped the 2nd type for the latter!!

I would have thought that different types (BT and TP) on the same house wiring would simply clash with one another - can't say for sure as I've never had to.

If I ever get the other PLA out of my lads room (if he aint working or sleeping he's gaming or streaming) I might see if I too can witness any breakup etc.

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jafreer
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Registered: 13-10-2012

Re: Loss of output

I never actually used the TP-Link and BT ones together as I also suspected this wouldn't help matters. The noise seems to come in bursts as you can go for a while with no issues. It seems lately that the interference is a lot worse as I can hardly go a minute or two without some pixellation.

So far so good on the wi-fi network, but it is early days. Certainly I am not getting the frequent pixellation that I was getting on the PLA network.

If I bought a router that allowed IGMP multicast over wifi (the hub one doesn't do this) then I could simplify things further, only needing the TP-Link adapter at the YV end. I liked the solution I am testing now because it didn't cost anything (I had the bits), and also because I quite like the Hub One and don't feel the need to replace it.

Community Veteran
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Registered: 17-06-2007

Re: Loss of output

So I'm now on a new pair from the cab to junction box on my house.

Master socket was replaced two weeks ago

Router and all cabling was swapped over a week ago.

Still getting serious TV signal problems (plus packet loss)........ but just about never get an error message being displayed on the TV.

Community Veteran
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Registered: 17-06-2007

Re: Loss of output

So I dropped my connection which leaves just the Mulitcast connected.... The picture break up continued.

 

So either its a very odd fault on the YV box (which causes packet loss as a side effect) or its something broken with my internet connection. BT engineer who came yesterday wasn't interested in what was on my ticket (logs of huge amounts of error seconds) and basically said he couldn't do anything unless his diagnostic equipment detected a fault.

jafreer
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Registered: 13-10-2012

Re: Loss of output

I think the fact that the problem persists when you have disconnected your PPP session to Plusnet indicates that it is not a capacity issue (i.e. if the problem stopped when you disconnected the PPP session, then it may indicate that your connection is getting saturated with other traffic that is impacting the multicast).

I think you said that your YV box is connected by an ethernet cable from the router. For the moment, we should rule out any issue with that cable connection between the router and YV box (doesn't mean there isn't a problem, but it is the least likely scenario).

That leaves the following scenarios (and there may be others)...

1) Faulty router

2) Faulty YV box

3) Problem with the multicast stream at the cabinet

4) Issues with your connection between modem and cabinet that are affecting your multicast stream (e.g. REIN, noise on line etc).

 

 

If you have tried different hardware (YV box and router) then I would rule those out. Whilst option 3 is a possibility, I think option 4 is the most likely.

I really think it would be worth getting hold of an Openreach HG612 modem and flashing the firmware on it so you can run DSL Stats. I think you want to try and find out your interleaving depths and also the number of errors on the line (and when they are happening). It does sound like a lot of effort but I think if you really want to investigate further, you need full line stats.

On a separate note, today I decided to route ethernet cable to my YV box as I was having issues with both a powerline setup and a wireless setup. It was a right pain to run the cable (crawling under floor etc) but I just about had enough cable from an old really long ethernet cable I had lying around. I don't have an RJ45 crimping tool ar any RJ45 line boxes so I broke each end of the cable out into terminal block and patched an old ethernet cable into the terminal block at each end. This has got the setup working until I either buy a crimping tool or a couple of line boxes. It is too early yet to see how the stability will be but if the picture still breaks up, I think I will be in just about the same position as you SteveA!

Community Veteran
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Registered: 17-06-2007

Re: Loss of output

1) Faulty router

2) Faulty YV box

3) Problem with the multicast stream at the cabinet

4) Issues with your connection between modem and cabinet that are affecting your multicast stream (e.g. REIN, noise on line etc).

 

1) Was getting exactly the same problem with the TG and the BTOR modem as I do with the Hub One

2) I have a spare PN YV box - get exactly the same problem with that one.

3)  See below

4) Was moved onto a clean pair of wires on Friday (I'd had ISDN back in the early 2Ks and they were still intact right back to the cab) which gave me a speed increase and a drop in latency but the packet loss and TV issues are still there.

 

I think that there must be something wrong with the port at the cab - that would explain the mulitcast issues and the packet loss. But BT won't consider a lift and shift unless its a last resort.

MrSilver
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Re: Loss of output

Rein can impact fttc, rein is just electrical interference, and as the copper pair is most likely to take the same route

 

when its multicast only you get impact, and when ppp is up ppp suffers at the same time on packetloss too.

 

to me that rules out the yv box, connection to yv box, multicast connection etc.

 

could be a faulty port in the cab, only quick way would be to see if plusnet would order a 2nd line into your house, but fttc on it, then cease the old line. They may incur a charge for the new line though so may not be able to do that formyou.

The faulty port may get reset when you boot the  router which is why it behaves with both the hub1 and or router for a bit.

 

other could be rein, which i suspect is more the issue as its proving hard for anyone to track down. Would assume if the port was faulty OR would be able to detect it. 

Seems like there is a problem on the line the OR cant detect when they run their test, but is intermittent and changes the time of day.

tbh, other than using a radio to see if you can pick up interference im running out of ideas to try :/

jafreer
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Registered: 13-10-2012

Re: Loss of output

I agree - I think it is far more l likely to be noise/interference issues rather than a faulty port at the cabinet. That doesn't mean that it's definitely not a faulty port, but I think it is worth trying to figure out your line stats so you can at least rule out your line being the issue.

Community Veteran
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Registered: 17-06-2007

Re: Loss of output

Routerstats running against the H1 doesn't show any obvious signs.

 

Packet loss and picture problems is back - packet loss started in the early hours and IPTV channels are glitching again....

 

 

Community Veteran
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Registered: 17-06-2007

Re: Loss of output

And now it seems to have all gone away..... Routerstats showing no obvious differences.

jafreer
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Registered: 13-10-2012

Re: Loss of output

I don't actually think routerstats is giving you enough information. I would like to see the interleaving depths and also the number of errors (rtx_tx, rtx_c, rtx_uc, and errfreebits).

The interleaving depths will give you an idea of the severity of errors on your line and the error counters will quantify it.

You could also look at the errors on a minute by minute graph so that you can try changing things to see if it helps.

In the absence of getting that information (I use an HG612 and DSL Stats software), you may never find out the cause. It may well be external to your property, and I do agree that you shouldn't really have to go to these lengths to find out the issue. But it all depends on whether you want to leave things up to Plusnet.

In my case, I took the plunge and bought the HG612 to track down line issues I had, and found out there was a horrendous amount of interleaving on the line. I then graphed error rates and through trial and error found the source of the noise and removed it. I would never have seen the issue looking at SNRMS alone.

 

I have now left the HG612 in place simply because the diagnostic information is superb. 

Community Veteran
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Registered: 17-06-2007

Re: Loss of output

Not sure what I'm going to do - something funky is going on.

Just lost everything on the TV .....and got IPC6011

Then I saw the connection was down... and no I didn't make any such request.

 

11:30:31, 19 Feb. (69322.050000) PTM over DSL is down after 1154 minutes uptime
11:30:31, 19 Feb. (69322.040000) PPPoE is down after 1153 minutes uptime [Waiting for Underlying Connection (WAN Ethernet 2 -​ Down)]
11:30:28, 19 Feb. (69319.190000) PPP LCP Send Termination Request [User request]

 

The odd thing here is that bouncing the PPPoE doesn't usually cause the multicast to go off line.... Router didn't reboot.....

 

The thing about the dropped packets and the TV signal issues is that it goes on for hours - and those hours don't tie in with anything in the house (its not the Central heating - its not the dishwasher, washing machine or dryer) and its patterns don't fit in with anything going on in this house...Bouncing the router (or previously the OR modem and TG router) makes it go away which suggests that if its is REIN that is starting it off its cured by dropping the connection to the cabinet... but of course that's not something you want to keep doing.  

 

Interleaving was on the line and it was banded but that was taken off during the first BT engineer visit and the problem hasn't really got any worse or any better.   The packet loss used to be between 4pm and 10pm at night - it now seems to have shifted but still occurs for hours on end.

 

Community Veteran
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Re: Loss of output

@jafreer

On the last test results we saw (2 weeks old now), the line was running with error protection off, so no retransmission or interleaving was in use then.

@SteveA

I think "PTM over DSL is down" indicates that the DSL re-connected.

Perhaps if Plusnet have completely run out of things to try, they could change the DLM to a more stable setting.