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Eurosport buffering

Taylor09
Newbie
Posts: 4
Registered: 30-12-2016

Eurosport buffering

Hi,

 

New to the community, but getting very frustrated with buffering on Eurosport only.  YouView box is connect via an ethernet cable and power line adaptor.  Running a speed check on my main computer is giving 35mbps, so should be ok.  Tried retuning the YV box, but to no avail.  Watching catch-up services are ok, but it just seems to be Eurosport where I get the problems - and the only reason I have Plusnet TV is for Eurosport!  Any suggestions?

Thanks,

17 REPLIES
MrSilver
Pro
Posts: 550
Thanks: 88
Fixes: 9
Registered: 05-10-2016

Re: Eurosport buffering

Can you run a speedtest over the powerline link?

Live TV channels use a different network to on-demand, and on demand can cope better with poor network as it buffers more content so can have more spikes in it.

Power line adapters can work great but are also very prone to in house interference.

Do they have any signal strength lights on them?

Are you able just as a test to run an ethernet cable from your hub to your youview box to test that, or temporarily move the youview box / tv near the hub to test there?

Taylor09
Newbie
Posts: 4
Registered: 30-12-2016

Re: Eurosport buffering

Thanks for the speedy response.  Yes, the Powerline adaptors have a light indicator and can often indicate between 0 - 20mbps.  Also, the speed test on the main computer is also via a Powerline.  To move the YV box would mean I need to get a 10m ethernet cable or can a TV connect to there YV box via wi-fi?  Just for completeness, it's not only liver Eurosport that buffers, but any Eurosport programme, for example, watching the TdF 2016 highlights.

MrSilver
Pro
Posts: 550
Thanks: 88
Fixes: 9
Registered: 05-10-2016

Re: Eurosport buffering

Hi, 

Is it the same power line adapter or an adapter in another room?

In one of the houses i lived in the power line adapter would take a huge hit in speed when things like washing machine or oven went on, or in some houses what the neighbour is doing (they can bleed across to other powerline networks via the earth too!)

If its the same adapter then would be interesting to see if you can run a speedtest on the PC at the same time the buffering is happening. 

The TV goes out a multicast connection and the speedtest out via your main internet line, but would be good to see the speed on the adapter at the time the buffering is happening.

The YV box itself doesn't have WiFi you would have to buy a wifi-ethernet bridge (something like https://www.overclockers.co.uk/tp-link-ac750-wi-fi-range-extender-re210-nw-203-tp.html boosts the wifi and has an ethernet port on it too).

If its jsut for testing something like https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Cables/Network-Cable-Cat5e-Ethernet-meter/B00B73S8LW/ is only £3.15 if 10m will reach - although if it proves the problem doesnt help you put a long term fix in place, but the wifi bridge might - but depends onhow good the wifi is etc. 

I always try to run TV boxes over ethernet - both my TV, youview box and sky q box.

 

When you say the other programmes buffer, is that jsut because you only watch eurosport or discovery chan are ok? If you can test some others if not done that would help some, hopefully its effecting all as if its only effecting eurosport that would be strange!

 

jafreer
Rising Star
Posts: 823
Thanks: 43
Registered: 13-10-2012

Re: Eurosport buffering


MrSilver wrote:

 

The YV box itself doesn't have WiFi you would have to buy a wifi-ethernet bridge (something like https://www.overclockers.co.uk/tp-link-ac750-wi-fi-range-extender-re210-nw-203-tp.html boosts the wifi and has an ethernet port on it too).

I don't think that wifi-ethernet bridge will work with the Plusnet Hub One (for the Plusnet subscription channels at least) because the Hub One doesn't support IGMP multicast over wifi. A direct connection to the router with ethernet cable should be fine, also powerline adapters between the router and YV box should be ok. But any device that converts a wifi signal to an ethernet cable won't work for the IPTV subscription channels if you are using the Plusnet Hub One (or a HH5 for that matter). (on demand services will work however).

 

Mayfly
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 1,064
Thanks: 58
Fixes: 1
Registered: 04-06-2009

Re: Eurosport buffering

I have the exact same problem. Eurosport channel only often disconnects, which is what I got PN TV for so I can watch the cycling, so not such a problem at this time of year.

 

All my other channels are fine.

Taylor09
Newbie
Posts: 4
Registered: 30-12-2016

Re: Eurosport buffering

Cycling was my main reason for getting the service.

I will get a Cat6 cable at some point (need 15m) and plug that directly into the YV box and see what happens.  This may not be for a week or so, but I will update this thread with what happens.

Thanks for the suggestions so far!

jafreer
Rising Star
Posts: 823
Thanks: 43
Registered: 13-10-2012

Re: Eurosport buffering

I don't know a whole lot about the technicalities of the Multicast channels but thinking about it, I could see it would be far more prone to glitches (packet loss, temporary loss of data etc) than unicast (Netflix, Iplayer etc). With unicast, retransmissions can be requested in the event of lost data or dropped packets. Also, because several seconds of the stream are usually buffered in advance, glitches are taken care of before you would ever see them.

With Multicast, you can't request retransmissions, you have to pick up the stream and view it. So if there is a momentary loss of data or dropped packets, you will notice it. It would appear Multicast is a lot less tolerant of data glitches.

 

As an example, when Plusnet had lots of packet loss issues several months ago, it affected my multicast channels. It could be seen as frequent break ups. Prior to the packet loss issues, I never had any problem. Also, once the packet loss issues were resolved, the channels stopped breaking up. This would make me think my setup is ok.

Unicast didn't have any issues during the packet loss episode, but I would expect that for the reasons stated above. Other time sensitive applications (e.g. VOIP) had frequent drop outs.

So given the nature of Multicast, I would think problems with the subscription channels would be one of the first places you would see issues if you have a problem with your connection.

MrSilver
Pro
Posts: 550
Thanks: 88
Fixes: 9
Registered: 05-10-2016

Re: Eurosport buffering

So your router connects to a multicast network at the exchange. This is not part of plusnets network and is managed by BT.

Over the same copper connection your router builds a ppp session to plusnet.

No multicast traffic therefore comes through the plusnet network, so even when plusnet has packetloss issues that itself won't cause multicast packets to get dropped (there may be bugs in routers etc that then has a knockon impact).

Multicast tv does have retransmissions, and works quite well usually, as long as you don't have too much. The multicast is buffered slightly so has chance to use your main broadband connection to get the retransmissions

If this internet link is suffering high packetloss then you may fail to get the retransmissions and get buffering / breakup.

So I suspect you have a small amount of retransmissions needed but aren't able to get them all over the top if you have packetloss here. When there is no packetloss you get the retransmissions ok.

Not sure if plusnet can see status on the retransmission servers to see how valid a theory that is. This may so be packetloss over the power line adapters.

Are you both on the bngs (static ips) or not?

@Mayfly how do you connect your hub to tv box?
Mayfly
Aspiring Pro
Posts: 1,064
Thanks: 58
Fixes: 1
Registered: 04-06-2009

Re: Eurosport buffering

I have the BT modem and the Sagemcom 2704N router that is connected by a TP-Link powerline adaptor, as my router is the other side of the house (3 rooms away) in the dining room. The Youview box is connect to the PLA via an ethernet cable. My wired speeds to my PC via the PLA are on average 30Mbps. 

 

I don't have a static IP.

 

It baffles me why it's only Eurosport 1 that suffers.

jafreer
Rising Star
Posts: 823
Thanks: 43
Registered: 13-10-2012

Re: Eurosport buffering

@MrSilver - interesting post. Yes, packet problems with Plusnet shouldn't really have affected the multicast streams. In fact, even if I disconnect from Plusnet via the router interface, the multicast channels still work. It does seem that I had fairly consistent picture breakups around the time of the packet loss issues, and that coincided with VOIP issues, so I put 2 and 2 together and assumed they were connected. So it does beg the question, why were my channel breakups happening then.

After following this thread, I have been leaving the YV box on some of the multicast channels for extended periods and I am occasionally getting small breakups and sometimes the IPC6023 error. I am using powerline adapters, so it could be related to that. Next step I suppose is to connect directly to the router, which isn't at all convenient, but would be a worthwhile test to rule out the PLA's.

The issue is fairly minor for me as I can go a long time without seeing any glitches, but it is still annoying when they do occur and I would like to get to the bottom of it.

jafreer
Rising Star
Posts: 823
Thanks: 43
Registered: 13-10-2012

Re: Eurosport buffering

Just an update to my last post. I used a long ethernet cable to connect the router directly to the YV box and monitored the multicast channels for a while. Seems I had no breakups at all. This solution is not practical however as the router is not near the YV box. I just ran the long ethernet cable along the floor and through the hall for the purposes of the test. It was a useful test though in that I ruled out the router (PN Hub One) and the modem (Openreach HG612) as being the cause of the breakups.

Next test was to move the powerline adapter (PLA) from behind the TV to a different socket near the TV. The purpose here was to get the powerline adapter away from all the wiring etc behind the TV. The break ups were still present. So I moved that PLA back into the original position.

Next test was to move the PLA near the router to a different socket (still in the same room as the router) and use the long ethernet cable to connect it up. I left things in that configuration for a while and didn't observe a single picture break up.

I have now made that setup more permanent by hiding the ethernet the cable along the skirting board etc.

The interesting thing to note is that I used powerline software to check the speeds of the powerline network, and the speeds stayed very high (around 200 Mbps). I don't think the picture breakups were due to lack of bandwidth, but more likely latency in the system. We know that multicast is not as tolerant as unicast because a lot less buffering takes place. So even a relatively small delay in packets could be enough to cause breakups.

So I am assuming that the position of the PLA could have caused noise or interference to cause latency in the powerline network.

I will keep monitoring the multicast channels to ensure the issue of glitches and breakups is completely gone. The unicast services (Netflix, Iplayers etc) were never bothered by these glitches, because they buffer heavily, allowing plenty of time for retransmission requests etc. As a previous poster stated, there may be some level of retransmission allowed in multicast streams, but it can't be much at all. That stream is going to everyone simultaneously, so I can't imagine there would be much capability to request retransmissions.

DS
Pro
Posts: 561
Thanks: 115
Fixes: 7
Registered: 06-01-2017

Re: Eurosport buffering

Regarding the YouView Box and PLA's...

I'm not sure if anybody on this thread is aware, but Plusnet have confirmed (during a conversation regarding another issue I have with the YV box/service) that the YV platform and certain types/brands of PLA's do not work well with each other.

(If PN wish to make a sticky (if there isn't one already?) regarding this internally known issue, then feel free to do so - possibly listing the ones you (PN) know do not work)

jafreer
Rising Star
Posts: 823
Thanks: 43
Registered: 13-10-2012

Re: Eurosport buffering

The PLA's I am using are TP-Link PA4010 (picked up on clearance for £8.00 at Tesco). So far, with the change in position, there have been no further issues, so hoping this model can be added to the list of compatible ones.

DS
Pro
Posts: 561
Thanks: 115
Fixes: 7
Registered: 06-01-2017

Re: Eurosport buffering

I don't think PN will provide a list of working PLA's, because they already sell their own versions, hence my post above regarding non working ones (let's face it, any supplier is going to put theirs as the ones recommended to use).

From looking around on the PN help files the PLA's offered with Plusnet Youview are actually specially made for BT. I say specially made because early versions used by BT Vision were not locked and users could tweak them.

However, these early ones created a bit of an issue, this link (under Ofcom Consultation) discusses the issues BT created with PLA's during the early days of BT Vision. The upper section of the link also states that Sky Q may have created their own issues....

A certain brand of PLA offered (in the early days) by BT were recalled due to a design issue (the front cover could separate with a potential risk of electrocution, yet some people then tried to offload them via ebay) and thus over time those of us that had either previously purchased them or were given them foc by BT were replaced with PLA's running a BT custom firmware - they locked us outSad

The BBC also have this regarding PLA's (also known as PLT's).

Having said all of the above, an unofficial list of working PLA's compiled by us shouldn't do any harmWink