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The pain...

dannyflounders
Grafter
Posts: 27
Registered: ‎12-06-2010

The pain...

If plusnet think turning interleaving on is going to help much with my fault, then they have plainly ignored all my attempts to alert them to a wide area fault.
I understand that their hands are tied somewhat, but excuses don't bode well with me. In my job I'm expected to provide answers and get results regardless of the third parties I have to deal with. If the communication and/or reporting system is flawed between ISPs and BT Openreach/Wholesale then it's time that someone fixed it.
Without question Malton exchange has severe problems and it is without doubt nothing to do with interleaving.
Turning it on only attempts to hide the real issue which is effecting at least 4 providers at the exchange; plusnet, talktalk, orange & BT.
I have in front of me 5 sets of adsl stats taken over 24 hours with large amounts of FEC, HEC and CRC errors accumulated.
Along with that I have download tests from said routers showing rates on average of less than 300Kbps.
And to complete the pile of crap I have screenshots of BT Speed Tests showing that all routers have good line sync and healthy IP Profiles.
Yet still I cannot get through to anyone that 'MY' issue is not just 'MY' issue, so we continue to waste time and I continue to pull my hair out in frustration... and I haven't got much to start with  Angry


27 REPLIES
Superuser
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Re: The pain...

Rather than continuing to delay why not allow the faults team to get interleaving turned on so fault analysis can be progressed with BT? Doing this is unfortunately a standard step in the procedures that BT Wholesale require to be followed. Having demonstrated that interleaving doesn't fix the problem - which needn't take an age - investigations can then progress with BT.
Plusnet are in no position to report that other ISPs have problems, they can only deal with faults experienced by their own customers.
David
Community Veteran
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Re: The pain...

Speedtest.net results carry no weight at all. What will count is BT speedtest results showing speeds well below the IP Profile.
Do the speeds achieved vary throughout the day? A speedtest at 7:30 am showing a healthy speed and an evening test on the same line showing poor speed would be just the evidence PN need to kick BT's butt!
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
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Re: The pain...

I know you're annoyed, and want to rant, but some of the data you put forward there is self-contradictory. Or at least inconsistent...
Quote from: dannyflounders
If plusnet think turning interleaving on is going to help much with my fault, then they have plainly ignored all my attempts to alert them to a wide area fault.
I have in front of me 5 sets of adsl stats taken over 24 hours with large amounts of FEC, HEC and CRC errors accumulated.

If you are getting genuine FEC errors counted, then you already have interleaving turned on.
If you are getting zero genuine FEC errors, but are getting significant numbers of genuine CRC and/or HEC errors, then Plusnet are right - turning interleaving on is indeed the first step to trying to trace the problem. And frankly, it is hard to go further to determine just how much of a wide-spread problem exists if there are also significant individual line-based problem getting in the way too.
Both types of errors are indeed individual to your line, and not an indication of any kind of wide-area fault. Unless, of course, every line is suffering the same level of line faults due to some serious interference source next to the exchange.
If you are getting all 3 types (genuinely) in large numbers, then you are suffering line problems, even with interleaving on. That is still an issue that is affecting the one line, and probably requires a visit from a BT engineer. You'll need this before BT would consider escalating the issue up to their REIN investigations team - which is probably the starting point of what is needed if there were town-wide interference issues.
Unfortunately, and the reason I used the word 'genuine' rather too frequently, the reporting of statistics is one area that many routers fail badly on - in particular the displaying of spurious, infeasibly large values, and even more particularly the upstream values. To be sure the values are genuine, you have to be reasonably sure you've seen them start from zero, and grow large. How many of each kind of error are you encountering each hour? are there any patterns over the course of a day? Or with phone calls? Or with the weather?
Quote from: dannyflounders
... then they have plainly ignored all my attempts to alert them to a wide area fault.
... If the communication and/or reporting system is flawed between ISPs and BT Openreach/Wholesale then it's time that someone fixed it.
Without question Malton exchange has severe problems and it is without doubt nothing to do with interleaving.
Turning it on only attempts to hide the real issue which is effecting at least 4 providers at the exchange; plusnet, talktalk, orange & BT.

The problem with asserting all of those things together is that, in the last statement, there is nothing in common between the TalkTalk equipment and the BT equipment (which is indeed common to the BT ISP, Plusnet, and is probably common to Orange too).
Without knowing how many problems are caused by the one line, and how many are caused by town-wide problem, it is impossible to say with impunity what problems are then common to BT and TalkTalk.
As jelv noted, the best way to show that BT's equipment is have a wide-ranging problem is to show BT Speedtester results at different times of the day, including the profile/sync speed values if possible. Decent test speeds overnight, early morning and daytime, compared with poor test speeds between 8PM and 10PM is a very good set of evidence.
Quote from: dannyflounders
I have in front of me 5 sets of adsl stats taken over 24 hours with large amounts of FEC, HEC and CRC errors accumulated.
Along with that I have download tests from said routers showing rates on average of less than 300Kbps.
And to complete the pile of [Censored] I have screenshots of BT Speed Tests showing that all routers have good line sync and healthy IP Profiles.
Yet still I cannot get through to anyone that 'MY' issue is not just 'MY' issue, so we continue to waste time and I continue to pull my hair out in frustration... and I haven't got much to start with  Angry

Its a shame you didn't post the router's stats, and the BT results, rather than the speedtest.net results. They'd be an awful lot more useful to get you help with your problem, and stop us pulling *our* hair out too ;-)
Plusnet Customer
Using FTTC since 2011. Currently on 80/20 Unlimited Fibre Extra.
dannyflounders
Grafter
Posts: 27
Registered: ‎12-06-2010

Re: The pain...

@WWWombat
I appreciate speedtest.net results are inaccurate but they are not useless, not when used regularly over multiple servers.
They may not give such an accurate result as BT test, but they provide baseline figures to work from if you continually use the same tests.
In actual fact I don't use it normally and I wasn't displaying them for any evidential reason, I've already provided plusnet with adsl stats from routers and some bt speedtest results, albeit not regular.
Here's my last one from the workshop on BT, and yes I should spend my time doing BT Speedtests because I have nothing better to do than to chase up faults.

Actually, I've spent all week running around answering customers calls to why their broadband connections are bordering useless.
And no I haven't contradicted myself. When I signed up I requested plusnet to turn off interleaving, I have a good quality line and it can stand it.
Some months back I requested them to check interleaving because my pings were high, they told me it was OFF, but set to auto, so put in a request to make it 'OFF'.
So if all these FEC errors only occur when interleaving is on then I am being given the runaround.
Out of the 7 customers I have visited, the average error count in 17 hours is; 70,000+ FEC errors, 1000+ CRC errors and 300+ HEC errors.
Some customer are well over the 100,000+ mark.
Routers vary: Netgear, Plusnet supplied, BT Voyager 220V, Orange Livebox, Belkin - all full of errors with interleaving on, all with exact same symptoms.
Plusnet Help Team
Plusnet Help Team
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Registered: ‎27-04-2007

Re: The pain...

@dannyflounders,
Sorry if you feel unhappy with your experience of our support. When we handle faults like this one interleaving is applied automatically in the majority of cases. However we're not going to force anyone to do this and we won't insist on doing that before we look at other things, if you have let us know that you don't want this we should be taking that request into account. If you feel that has happened however I'd be concerned so do let me know.
I have to agree that there may be an issue at the exchange perhaps relating to interference. Our suppliers do give us the ability to track 'common faults' where large number of users at the same exchange are affected by the same problem and I'll see how quickly that can be investigated.
Let me take ownership of your issue and I'll escalate this as needed, I can see a colleague of mine has already been helping and I'd like to speak with him first so I'll make that a priority today and will get back to you ASAP.
If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Adam Walker
 Plusnet Help Team
dannyflounders
Grafter
Posts: 27
Registered: ‎12-06-2010

Re: The pain...

Adam I have been contacted by a staff member at plusnet just now.
They suspect it's related to a VP issue ongoing at the exchange.
I'm happy to wait a few days for BT's response to see if I can be moved on another VP.
If interleaving needs to be turned on to progress the fault I understand and that is fine.
I never made any attempt to stop that from happening as I appreciate there are guidelines to follow.
What annoyed me was the fact that this issue was without doubt, effecting other people and I could do nothing to alert anyone to that.
Regardless of the ongoing VP issues at the exchange, something has happened to cause severe problems for at least 7 of my customers, and it all started last Thursday.
If I were to sit there and report the fault for each and everyone of them I would be suffering dementia by now.
What plusnet need to understand is that many of my customers are of the older generation and others are just not happy to ring their ISPs with faults... for a multitude of reasons. Some of them will sit quietly and 'put up' with problems rather than attempt to get them sorted. Not because they don't want to but because they are intimidated by all the tech stuff.
So I get called in to sort the problems out, but in this case having to ring 7 ISPs complaining of the same fault, going through the same procedure, needing to talk another language in some cases, well it just wasn't good enough.
The sad reality is that if there are any VPs I can get moved onto, there's a good chance many of my customers will miss out and BT are in no rush to fix it considering there is no ETA. Worse still, it also means I am going to have to ring all those ISPs now and go through this ball-ache, most likely not getting anywhere.
I appreciate plusnet's help on this matter... correction, I appreciate the staffs help on this matter.
Daniel
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Re: The pain...

I think you are being very unreasonable. Tongue You are expecting BT to want to take the most sensible approach to a problem that is obviously affecting a number of users for multiple ISPs on the same exchange. We all know that that just ain't going to happen! Sad
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
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Plusnet Help Team
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Re: The pain...

Hi again,
Quote
I never made any attempt to stop that from happening as I appreciate there are guidelines to follow.

I wasn't really implying that we have to do that, more the opposite. I just wanted to make clear for the benefit of others who may find themselves in the same scenario that rather than complain about us applying interleaving just say the word and we'll hold back on that.
With regards to VPs its very unlikely new ones would be installed, however if the VP is running to capacity (which is sometimes referred to as "running hot") then BT wholesale should be discussing with us plans to get it upgraded to cater for that. Please don't bank on this being the precise cause of the issue. I'd advise thinking of this as one of the more likely causes that we'll look at ruling out soon.


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 Adam Walker
 Plusnet Help Team
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Re: The pain...

Adam,
Why do you consider a VP hot to be likely? I've never heard of it causing lots of errors to be logged.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
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Plusnet Help Team
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Re: The pain...

I haven't said that the VP would be causing the errors Jelv.
Quote
Please don't bank on this being the precise cause of the issue. I'd advise thinking of this as one of the more likely causes that we'll look at ruling out soon.

It's one of a number of things that we can't overlook when dealing with speed issues.
If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Adam Walker
 Plusnet Help Team
dannyflounders
Grafter
Posts: 27
Registered: ‎12-06-2010

Re: The pain...

Quote from: _Adam_Walker_
Hi again,
Quote
I never made any attempt to stop that from happening as I appreciate there are guidelines to follow.

I wasn't really implying that we have to do that, more the opposite. I just wanted to make clear for the benefit of others who may find themselves in the same scenario that rather than complain about us applying interleaving just say the word and we'll hold back on that.

I think we got crossed wires there, never mind.
Regarding VPs; I don't think for a minute it is a VP issue, and I hope it isn't because the likelihood of it being fixed is minute.
When Marc rang me today I went along with what he was saying because I have no choice, the VP amber warning has been in place since May if I recall,
I saw it on the service page long before Plusnet mentioned this to me.
I've just spent most of the day reporting faults to ISPs with my clients.
I've got another BT one to do tomorrow morning - frankly all ISPs can go to hell at this moment in time - the whole system is knackered and BT are holding the hammer!  Angry.
I'm in no doubt (but I might have to eat my hat) there is some faulty equipment somewhere or some very bad interference.
What is interesting is that, although initially I wasn't sure, I now know that TalkTalk LLU is also being effected with some customers.
My brothers Pings have gone mental, his line jitter is measuring all over the place, and his download rates are just as poor as mine....
All since Thursday.
Now with TalkTalk being Unbundled, this must surely point the BT Openreach engineers to a very specific area does it not?
Out of interest, does anyone have more specific information on how unbundled providers equipment links in with the rest of the wholesale stuff?
I'm assuming they all still have to share the backhaul?
Cheers
Daniel


Plusnet Help Team
Plusnet Help Team
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Registered: ‎27-04-2007

Re: The pain...

Hi there,
We've seen that the VP has been reported as being on amber status so we've asked BT wholesale to run further checks as mentioned. The e-mail was sent to them yesterday and bearing in mind we usually get a response within 48 hours this shouldn't really set us back.
If its not a VP issue we won't be leaving you high and dry as we will be looking at other potential causes of your fault such as REIN (interference).
I'll make sure we keep pushing this forwards as quickly as we can for you.
If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Adam Walker
 Plusnet Help Team
dannyflounders
Grafter
Posts: 27
Registered: ‎12-06-2010

Re: The pain...

Hey,
Thanks Adam.
Plusnet Help Team
Plusnet Help Team
Posts: 13,536
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Registered: ‎27-04-2007

Re: The pain...

FYI you should have a reply to your ticket now.
If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Adam Walker
 Plusnet Help Team