Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

[#1]

Hi Kevin,
I'll have a look again on Monday.
The figures you have posted there, from the top of my head, do seem to be different to the ones I was looking at. So apologies if I have somehow looked at a random account that coincidentally also had an issue with referrals!
I think I'm going to have another look at the database and see if somehow certain products referral values have been changed to a random amount. If that is what has happened it's nice and easy to fix and can be brought in with what work we are already doing as it is pretty much the same issue. The harder part to that would be finding out how and why it had happened in the first place.
If it is something completely different, we'll have to raise a different task for it and investigate further to find out what is happening there.
I would have to agree that the whole referrals system is not the clearest and at some point it is something that I think would benefit from being redesigned from scratch. I'm not sure when it was first designed, but I'm guessing it was a while ago when we were much smaller. Obviously, that will take some time, I'll check to see if that is already planned in as part of another project with the digicare guys.

[#2]

Scott,
Thank you - what an excellent response especially on Saturday evening.  You bring confidence that the issues are being understood and accepted as being issues requiring more than a cursory investigation and then being dismissed as not really an issue.  I do hope that we will see more of you here on the forums beyond the matter of referrals.
Cheers,
Kevin

[#3]

Quote from: Scott

So we are having to deal with extra complications such as people moving between packages with different referral values.

What about the situation where the referral value for a product has changed, e.g. the payment for ADSL 'Unlimited' which has fallen from 75p to 50p?
Because I have two referrals for ADSL 'Unlimited' paying 75p, but a third showing a zero referral value, I'm just wondering how this would figure in the 'fix' which is being worked on, in particular with regard to the date that the above referral value was reduced.
Presumably the two which historically have been generating 75p will continue to do so, but when the third one is fixed (which was a product change from ADSL 'Extra' to ADSL 'Unlimited') the value will depend on whether the product change took place before or after the referral value reduction change date.
What was that date?

[#4]

I'll try to be around a bit more Kevin. Glad you have found the input useful and worthwhile. I've found it equally as useful.
They won't be affected RobPN.
They are different products and are identified with different product IDs in the database. We have that situation with a number of products with the same name.

[#5]

Quote from: Scott

They won't be affected RobPN. They are different products and are identified with different product IDs in the database. We have that situation with a number of products with the same name.

I'm not sure you've answered the latter part of my query - the part quoted below ...

Quote from: RobPN

..., but when the third one is fixed (which was a product change from ADSL 'Extra' to ADSL 'Unlimited') the value will depend on whether the product change took place before or after the referral value reduction change date. What was that date?

If my assumption is correct, I'd just like to know at what rate the referral will be paid when the problem is fixed.

[#6]

Sorry, I shouldn't try to reply when I've just woke up and on a phone
The ones that are showing as zero at the moment will be paid as per http://www.plus.net/support/tools/referrals/referrals_discount_info.shtml as this problem affects the new set of products rather than older products.
So it depends on if it's unlimited residential ADSL (50p), unlimited residential fibre (75p), unlimited business ADSL (£1) or unlimited business fibre (£1.25).
With it being a Sunday and me being at home, I couldn't say which apply in your situation.

[#7]

Scott,
Weekend working from home?  That's dedication!
I look forward to receiving more insight into my referral values history.
Cheers,
Kevin

[#8]

Hi Kevin,
Just to let you know, not forgot about you. Just had a very busy Monday.
I've got some time set aside this afternoon to look over your referrals again
Edit:
Looks like it is something odd going on in the database.
For the one product type that is causing the odd values on your account I have found a reference to it in the database at 59p for referrals, which matches up with a lot of referral tokens going back that were generated at 59p.
It should actually be 50p, so I can see how someone has accidentally hit a 9 instead of a 0 when inputting it.
I have no idea where the 72p on the same referee has come from at the moment though. I won't be surprised if it's an odd value in the database.

[#9]

Quote from: Scott

I have found a reference to it in the database at 59p for referrals, which matches up with a lot of referral tokens going back that were generated at 59p.

Scott,
Thank you for your perseverance.  Whilst this might explain one aspect of the peculiar figures, it only raises a different question of "If that is the figure in the database (used to calculate referral values?) why does that figure not shown in my current referrals list?" as seen here which only shows zero, 25p, 50p and 60p value tokens.  I suspect that this 59p token is related to a manual association in connection of a referral who forgot to add my userID on their sign-up journey.
I'm grateful that you are able to confirm that there is something more then superficial with at least my experience with the referrals system.  I hope you have the same luck in resolving the other odd values reported before.
How is the plan to deploy the zero value essential fix progressing please?
Cheers,
Kevin

[#10]

Odd that it shows something different on the member centre than what it does on the database. I can't say that I checked this earlier, I assumed it wouldn't pull a number from somewhere completely different. That just seems horribly inefficient to me.
The 59p is taken straight from the database for the product that referral is for. So it will affect any and all people who have referrals on that product, not just yourself.
The plan for the zero values is definitely getting there, I sat down with the developer today to go over progress. We have the correct values in the database on our test environments and the developer is going through our code review process to make sure it all checks out from a coding point of view and does what it should.
Once that is done, it's over to me to go through our testing processes and assuming it all passes it will go in the next available release which would be mid-end January at the latest. As mentioned earlier in this thread my preference and the developers preference is to get it out before Christmas though, the longer it carries on, the harder (and more expensive!) it makes the clean up for the missed tokens from the previous months.
If for some reason it doesn't pass testing, for whatever reason, I'll certainly let people know on here and update how it will effect the fix going out.
I'm in Birmingham on a training course until Friday meaning I probably won't have anything new to add until I'm back in the office on Monday.

[#11]

14/11/2013

Quote

It will be going in a batch of fixes that we will be releasing in December at the latest,

3/12/2013

Quote

it will go in the next available release which would be mid-end January at the latest.

??/1/2014

Quote

Feb at the latest?

[#12]

@gofaster
Understand your frustration, however I doubt this is the only burning issue the team has got.  As I have suspected for a long time this is turning out to be not quite as simple as first thought.  Altering long standing code which through time has been extended (bent) to do far more than its original design envelope intended can be very problematic.  We have waited so long to get clear recognition that there are errors in the referral system.  I am sure users would prefer that the solution was correct when deployed, rather than rushing in a fix, only to find 'edge' cases which cause yet more issues.
We also have no insight to what else is burning in PN towers being fixed by the team.  Scott's presence on the forums is refreshing, having someone who is responsible for delivering the systems in direct contact with the users can only be beneficial for all concerned.  Lets not run the danger of shooting the messenger.
Cheers,
Kevin

[#13]

I am now almost at the point of finding it almost amusing and no longer annoying.  My referrals have been all over the place for years.  I know for a fact the I have lost 2users completely that I don't get any money for because of the system faults.
I still recommend people, in October my parents signed up and again it's adding ZERO  to my account but at least I got to spend almost an hour on the phoe waiting to chat to one of the ever friendly a plus net staff about it 

[#14]

@Scott
I've just noticed I seem to be affected by this problem too, do you need a ticket raised or will it be picked up automatically?

[#15]

Which problem?  The zero value tokens, or mine with non-standard referral total values?