Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

[Kelly]

I believe they are now messing you around :/

[jelv]

What do you mean "now"? Haven't they been doing that nearly from the outset?

[gphancock]

Quite agree with you. The last two days have been curious to say the least.  To reiterate, I'll speak to Ofcom to see if they have the same interpretation of events. I have my doubts but I'll give them a chance to redeem themselves.
I'll see what turns up on Thursday and go from there. Surely, they have to let me transfer to another provider and can't keep doing this? Also doesn't a MAC (legally) have to be generated in a 5 working day frame?

[LinnPlusnet]

Morning gphancock,
This may be worth a read:
http://ask.ofcom.org.uk/help/internet-service/MAC
It does state that your provider is required to provide you with a MAC Code within 5 working days.

Quote

Under Ofcom regulations, where a consumer or small business (with 10 or less employees) wishes to change broadband provider, a MAC must be issued within 5 working days of the request.

Let us know how it goes with your conversations with SKY and/or Ofcom.

[gphancock]

Good morning Linn,
I read that again this before my chat with Ofcom. Thank you.  :) I am shaking my head with with regard the advice provided today by Ofcom. I am going to try and gather my thoughts and try and write the advice in a coherent fashion. I am not sure that will be possible ::) Remember I have had "computer says no" conversation. Today, it was the "yeah...but no...but" conversation with Ofcom. They really must be fans of Little Britain at Ofcom Towers! ;)
ps Any idea what training and qualifications these advisers have at Ofcom?
pps Is it possible to lodge a complaint again Ofcom advisers? ;)

[LinnPlusnet]

:(
I've never personally had to log a complaint against Ofcom or their advisors before but I have found this page for you in hope that it can help:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/policies-and-guidelines/complaints-about-ofcom/
Have you had any luck with SKY at all?

[jelv]

[quote=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/policies-and-guidelines/complaints-about-ofcom/]But sometimes things can go wrong – or we can fall short of our own high standards.
;D ;D ;D

[abstruse21]

I have my fingers crossed for you.. and a few toes.. that the 'by Thursday' works out still. Unless you have heard anything to the contrary?
I am surprised by OFCOM. Thought they were better than that and were less inclined to the 'yesbut, nobut' attitude. Shows I was wrong. Surely they have a list of guidelines and just follow it.. and advise the company involved to just follow it.. It isn't like they can't hear this same type of problem daily and have a procedure set out exactly step by step how to proceed..
That's what they are for isn't it? To offer that step-by-step guidance to all parties?
I agree to the 'sounds like they are just messing you about' and to your opinion of complaining about OFCOM too if that is the way they are carrying on.
Left you a reply on my thread to your comment,  along with replies to other people! :D

[gphancock]

Quote from: Linn

:( I've never personally had to log a complaint against Ofcom or their advisors before but I have found this page for you in hope that it can help: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/policies-and-guidelines/complaints-about-ofcom/ Have you had any luck with SKY at all?

Thank for that Linn. I may need to use it, as I am very concerned about Ofcom after 4 (actually 5) telephone calls. In this case, I think they should have been more proactive in their approach on the 3rd/4th April.
I have not contacted SKY, as the person dealing with my case isn't in the office until tomorrow. While I don't appreciate the delays, he has been reasonably helpful and proactive in recent days to find a solution. If he fails to provide the MAC by Friday, then action will be taken. I seriously believe intervention by Ofcom at this stage chasing the MAC would make matters worse and confuse the issue. 1-2 days if it means continuing connectivity is a small price to pay.

[gphancock]

Quote from: jelv

[quote=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/policies-and-guidelines/complaints-about-ofcom/]But sometimes things can go wrong – or we can fall short of our own high standards.

Jelv - I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the reference to high standards. Admittedly, the first person I spoke in relation to the original O2 Broadband to SKY migration issue was helpful. There have been mixed messages since the TAG/MAC issue has arisen.
adie:green fixed quote]

[gphancock]

Sorry about that last message. It did not format, as I would have wanted.
abstruse21 - I read your message earlier and then I made that phone call to Ofcom. I intend responding after I have put my update on here.
Thank you for your kind words. Fingers, toes and everything crossed maybe required.  ;) It takes up to 3 working days for the MAC to be generated in this case and the person I am dealing with is out of the office until Thursday. My contact at SKY is e-mailing me on Thursday with a progress report and hopefully that MAC.
I have been surprised by Ofcom too. I had to utilise the Ombudsman many years ago in an electrical contract case and they were helpful up to a point but do not appear to have any understanding about the basic tenets of a contract. In that scenario, I was told I would lose the case but they had failed to spot that there was no contract in existence, when the migration from one provider to another took place in when the initial provider was insolvent.
In this scenario, Ofcom seemingly have no clear idea what to do in a case like this. The problem lies with the terms "cessation" and "take down" in this case and who effectively has control of the service. In layman terms, you would think that if I have a broadband service and there is a SKY TAG on the line, it would be straightforward and a new MAC could be generated. Apparently not.
A further issue I have with Ofcom is the limited notes they appear to take during conversations. Each adviser seems confused and doesn't have a handle on the case from my experience. At this stage, I am merely asking for advice, although, Ofcom have asked at several points if I want to make an official complaint. If I did wish to make a complaint, I would be completing everything in writing, as the advisers notes are basically a brief synopsis and in this case they did not contain the full facts.

[gphancock]

Update – Ofcom Conversation – Wednesday AM.
The person I spoke to commenced the conversation by claiming that this was a "TAG" matter and said that SKY were quite accurate in their assertions. I asked the Ofcom adviser if she was basing this on the e-mail I read out last week and she appeared to have no knowledge of said e-mail from SKY dated 3rd April, 2014. This was the basis of the conversation with Ofcom on the 3rd April, 2014. The Ofcom said that the advisers took limited notes. I then proceeded to read the following extract from an e-mail sent from SKY on the 3rd April, 2014:
With regards to your MAC request, Sky did send one to you as you are aware and this was used and our system showed that your broadband service ceased on or around the 28th March 2014 on our systems but the error caused by Plusnet has meant that the broadband service has not completely cancelled on BT Wholesale's back system(as you had broadband connect with Sky this shows on BT Wholesale's systems as they are effectively providing the service for you). You are effectively being provided with a free broadband service presently.
As the broadband has ceased on your Sky account is is impossible to generate another MAC on a cancelled account.
The Ofcom adviser then proceed to lecture me on "TAG" procedures. She informed me that the cession and removal of the TAG is a separate procedure. I was told that it could take 10-15 days for the TAG to be removed by the existing provider. I have also been informed during other conversation with Ofcom that it can take 10 days and 14 days to remove the TAG. Make of that what you will.  ::)
This is what I have found on TAG procedures via google and Ofcom:
http://ask.ofcom.org.uk/help/internet-service/MAC
http://www.samknows.com/news/ofcom-revises-the-tag-on-the-line-resolution-procedure-378.html
http://ask.ofcom.org.uk/help/internet-service/tagremoval
Reading this last link, the actual TAG removal time is 10 days:
Your new broadband provider is best placed to investigate and fix the underlying cause of the tag.
If necessary they can liaise directly with BT Wholesale/Openreach to have the tag removed. This is normally completed in 10 working days
At this point, I am going to ask Chris P, Kelly and Linn a question. As documented on here, once SKY had cancelled the account via the BT Wholesale account, could a tagging issue have remained for another 10 days? Or was this something you could have addressed with BT Wholesale, as they were responsible for the mistake in the first instance with the cancelled order? I just want to elucidate this point, following the conversation with Ofcom.
Returning to the Ofcom conversation, I stated that things had progressed somewhat since then and I explained and read out the following extract from the same e-mail from the 3rd April, 2014:
To resolve this for you I need to contact BT Wholesale and have them cancel the service completely on their systems, this will then mean that you can order your service with Plusnet without the need for a MAC. The only issue with this is that you will lose a broadband service from the time that BT Wholesale cancel on their system to the time that Plusnet activate your new service
I hope this information is helpful to show the way forward and I will be contacting BT Wholesale tonight by E-Chat to request that they remove the service, this could take up to 48-72 hours to cancel

I then stated that I had been permitted to continue my broadband service over the weekend with reference to further e-mail on the 3rd April between myself and SKY.
In the meantime, I referenced the e-mail I sent to SKY on Monday 7th April, 2014 to disconnect my broadband. Thereafter, I enlightened her on an SKY e-mail dated the 8th April, 2014 which now asserted that the BT  Wholesale disconnect was not a viable option and they now had to generate a MAC . She again made reference to the TAG issue, whereupon I decided to rudely interrupt said Ofcom adviser. I said “If SKY are generating a MAC why could they not proceed with this action on the 3rd /4th April, 2014? This prompted a light bulb moment and I was asked if I had an active line. I asked her to define “active line.” If you are asking whether I still have broadband and there is a SKY TAG on my line...well, the answer is yes! I also informed the other 3 Ofcom advisers of this fact and that did not appear to be of any significance 2 advisers during conversations on the 3rd/4th April. We then proceed to have a conversation on this subject and I was informed that Ofcom could intervene again, if this was a MAC issue. I stated that I would wait until Thursday/Friday for a response from SKY.
My reasoning is based on the fact that the person I am now dealing with is prepared to generate a MAC and that outcome would be far better than the other option and the removal of the TAG. It only means an additional 1-2 days wait and what is a day or two when this saga started around the 11th March, 2014 in one form or another. :( I also have no confidence in Ofcom and the advice provided. I, now, feel that they could have pressed SKY further on the 3rd/4th April, 2014, when they refused to provide the MAC at that stage.
Returning to Ofcom, they are now admitting that SKY may be culpable, as the adviser now suspects there was an active line when I requested advice on the MAC on the 3rd/4th April, 2014. They did, however, suggest that SKY may have a fall-back insofar as Plusnet use LLU and BTOpenreach systems and if it was an LLU system, this is why the 28th March is significant for SKY within “cessation” of service and "takedown" action.
I would appreciate clarification on the LLU. Does anyone at Plusnet know if the LLU is relevant to my case? If the LLU applies, then SKY have recourse to this:
However, there are some circumstances where the losing broadband supplier can refuse to provide a MAC. These are:
•    the broadband supplier cannot confirm they are dealing with the named account holder
•    the broadband service has already been disconnected or in the process of being disconnected
•    the broadband supplier has already issued a MAC and it is still valid
•    the broadband supplier is unable to obtain the MAC from their own supplier
•    the broadband service is supplied through a full Local Loop Unbundling package
http://ask.ofcom.org.uk/help/internet-service/MAC
At this point, I should apologise for the lack of brevity and lucidness. Regrettably, this was the most difficult conversation I had with Ofcom during the past week. Other advisers have been friendly and in their way tried to help but I do not think they are assisted by Ofcom regulations and the code of practice. It is, nevertheless, their job to advise and provide clarity where a situation like this arises and where there is deadlock between various providers.

[Pettitto]

Hi all,
I'm going to quote small sections within my reply to break each answer down, I hope everyone is happy with that...awesome :)

Quote

As the broadband has ceased on your Sky account it is impossible to generate another MAC on a cancelled account.

That sounds to me like Sky have cancelled your account but the cease hasn't completed with BT Wholesale. Why hasn't the cease completed? Because we didn't use the original MAC Code. If we don't use a MAC Code their service with Sky, should continue, as it has. Think of a MAC as a transfer of services and a cease of services as cutting your line essentially. If Sky has your account cancelled, they should be dealing directly with BT Wholesale in getting a MAC Code for your asset.

Quote

Your new broadband provider is best placed to investigate and fix the underlying cause of the tag. If necessary they can liaise directly with BT Wholesale/Openreach to have the tag removed. This is normally completed in 10 working days

This is, I believe, under the assumption that Sky have actually ceased your service, which they don't appear to have as you still have a working service. If your line had been ceased and the TAG still remained on it, then yes, we would raise a TAG query to get it removed - no problem.

Quote

At this point, I am going to ask Chris P, Kelly and Linn a question. As documented on here, once SKY had cancelled the account via the BT Wholesale account, could a tagging issue have remained for another 10 days? Or was this something you could have addressed with BT Wholesale, as they were responsible for the mistake in the first instance with the cancelled order? I just want to elucidate this point, following the conversation with Ofcom.

If Sky had ceased the line, Sky's TAG may have remained on the line. We raise a TAG query to get this removed, generally takes around 5 working days to remove.

Quote

Returning to Ofcom, they are now admitting that SKY may be culpable, as the adviser now suspects there was an active line when I requested advice on the MAC on the 3rd/4th April, 2014. They did, however, suggest that SKY may have a fall-back insofar as Plusnet use LLU and BTOpenreach systems and if it was an LLU system, this is why the 28th March is significant for SKY within “cessation” of service and "takedown" action. I would appreciate clarification on the LLU. Does anyone at Plusnet know if the LLU is relevant to my case?

In this instance, Sky are providing the service across BT Wholesale as opposed to BT Openreach which is how LLU would have worked. The reason you're not on LLU is because you were previously with O2 and they operated on the BT Network, when Sky took over, they kept you on the BT Network instead of transferring you onto the LLU Network.

[Kelly]

And to be clear on the last point, Plusnet use the BT Wholesale network, so we were on equivalent technology to the Sky/O2 technology, so the whole process should have been seamless and disruption free.

[gphancock]

Thanks for the the responses Chris P and Kelly.  Others are interested in this case, which is why I have continued to post. Nevertheless, I felt I should leave it to you to respond to the Ofcom discussion, despite my conversations with Chris P. In that sense you have the right to reply. :)
In common with the 5 day rule with the MAC, I thought that may be the case with the LLU. It didn't make sense in any capacity why the LLU exemption with the MAC would apply.  Nevertheless, I didn't raise this with Ofcom, as I prefer to deal with fact.  
From my perspective, it is increasingly clear that the MAC issue should have been pursued by Ofcom on the 3rd/4th April. As Kelly says this should have been a relatively easy migration.
Thanks again for the feedback. I know this case must be pretty frustrating for you all, as well.  Chris P,  you must be looking forward to the weekend ;)