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Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

gphancock
Grafter
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎03-04-2014

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

Quote from: Chris
Thanks very much for the information, I've absolutely no doubt about that information you've been provided.
I've requested the TAG on the line be removed so I'm just waiting to hear back on that, as soon as I get that cleared, I'll get the rest of the orders all placed and we'll get the service up and running for you ASAP. I can't see a problem with keeping your phone number to be honest, we've said we would, so we will.
I entirely appreciate where you're coming from and I'd probably have done the same in your position so don't worry, I know where you're coming from - we just want to get this sorted out for you ASAP. Leave this with me and I'll post here shortly once I hear back from our suppliers.

I apologise for nagging etc but have you made any progress with this issue since this morning? I am guessing that nothing further can be done over the weekend and the latest I will be cut off is Monday at some point, if SKY's last e-mail is an indicator.
If nothing can be arranged according to the terms specified, I would rather know sooner rather than later. In that case, it will be necessary to come to another arrangement based on Ofcom's advice.
Pettitto
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 6,346
Fixes: 5
Registered: ‎26-11-2011

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

Just a quick one to let you know that I'm still working on this for you.
I'll post back very, very shortly.
Pettitto
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 6,346
Fixes: 5
Registered: ‎26-11-2011

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

Sorry for the long delay here.
I'm just going to break down what's happened, for everyone's benefit.
25/03/2014 - Danial called you and placed the broadband order as there was some initial issues with the MAC Code on our internal systems.
27/03/2014 - The order was cancelled on our suppliers systems and they have taken responsibility for that and will expedite a further order for us.
We were expecting the order to complete on 02/04/2014, however as the order was cancelled, this hasn't happened - we should have been notified, but weren't by our suppliers so we could relay this information onto you - I'm really sorry for this.
Now we're in a situation where the line is currently owned by Sky and they are in full control of the asset. We can't attempt to place an order without a MAC Code. We have two options;
- We can wait for the cease that Sky has put through (I can't see any cease orders from Sky nor can our suppliers BT Wholesale) so I can't see the Sky service being cut, however, I can't confirm this.
- Sky provides a MAC Code and we progress the order with a new MAC Code and expedite the order and get things moving ASAP
We can't clear the TAG on the line as Sky are still active on it - I raised a query and our suppliers requested us to migrate the service by using a MAC Code. As Sky are in control of the line, they must provide a MAC Code before we're able to progress.
I appreciate it's not what you wanted to hear, but I've tried all avenues available to me but I've just not been able to do anything with the line without a MAC Code.
gphancock
Grafter
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎03-04-2014

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

What a shambles!  Angry And as a customer I am the one suffering here. At present, I have study and lectures to complete online and I have examinations in one month.  I could be up to 2 weeks without a broadband I was informed yesterday. Furthermore, I have already taken two days off to try and resolve this issue
According to Ofcom and SKY that is not the case.  They say the account has been  takedown and they will not provide a MAC code.
Effectively, I am going to be cut off on Monday by SKY, where does that leave me, if they won't provide the MAC code? OFCOM and SKY are in agreement on this issue. As it is 5pm on a Friday, I cannot relay this to Ofcom. It should be noted that Ofcom are firmly on the side of SKY and say it is for you to resolve. The onus of responsibility should not be laid at my door again. Why should I be cut off and shut down due to Plusnet and the wholesalers mistakes? Surely having admitted responsibility you/the wholesale provider have to resolve this situation somehow with SKY?
What was discussed further with OFCOM was releasing me from the existing contract with Plusnet and returning to my existing providers or bundling everything to BT. Plusnet have taken the money but cannot provide a service, according to the terms of contract. I waited for you t respond before I made an inquiries of this nature.
I am sorry Chris but you will either have to resolve this by first thing on Monday morning or I am looking at the alternative Ofcom and I discussed. This really isn't good enough.  I am not sure I want to stay with a provider who treats their customers with such contempt.
gphancock
Grafter
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎03-04-2014

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

ps Chris this message is not directed to personally. I know you have tried today to resolve this issue and I am grateful for your efforts. Sadly, I think Plusnet need to go further as a company to resolve this issue when mistakes have been recognised. The customer should not be compromised in this situation.
pps Would you prefer if some of this issue is discussed via ticket or PM in future?
HPsauce
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Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

A number of us here are very interested in this ludicrous situation (and others that are similar) where the processes seem to end in deadlock with neither ISP taking any real responsibility or ownership of the problem, instead often requiring the hapless user to run around for them.
So please keep posting if you are up to it.
This (referred to recently in another thread) may be useful to read: http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/codes-of-practice/migrations-authorisation-code-mac-broadband-migratio...
I don't think BT try very hard to help resolve these issues, most of which appear to be caused by BT themselves and their inertia and inflexibility, but that doesn't help you.
jelv
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Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

There is one totally ludicrous point about this situation. There are very strict rules about taking over the provision of services which are designed to prevent slamming (customers being grabbed by another provider without their consent). That means that if there is a tag on the line another provider cannot take the service over without either the existing provider giving a MAC which is then given to the new provider, or the existing service being cancelled (which removes the tag) and once that completes a new service being ordered. Where it gets stupid is that those rules are imposed by OFCOM, so I'm far from convinced that the advice you have been given by them is correct!
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
gphancock
Grafter
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎03-04-2014

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

Quote from: HPsauce
A number of us here are very interested in this ludicrous situation (and others that are similar) where the processes seem to end in deadlock with neither ISP taking any real responsibility or ownership of the problem, instead often requiring the hapless user to run around for them.
So please keep posting if you are up to it.
This (referred to recently in another thread) may be useful to read: http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/codes-of-practice/migrations-authorisation-code-mac-broadband-migratio...
I don't think BT try very hard to help resolve these issues, most of which appear to be caused by BT themselves and their inertia and inflexibility, but that doesn't help you.

Of course, I will continue to post. if anyone is interested in my rants and experiences.
It is a ludicrous situation and I feel that we have returned to the claim and counter claim process between SKY and Plusnet.
Thank you for the information you have provided with regard to MAC. If you have read my previous rants, you will note that Ofcom are firmly on the side of SKY in this case. I can actually understand that perspective in terms of the secondary MAC key. Plusnet/the wholesalers made the error so why should SKY resolve the problem and re-establish an account, if I am effectively an ex-customer and migrated on the 28th March. It really is not in their interest to assist, although, you could argue that it may be worth SKY treating ex-customers in a reasonable manner, as they are potentially future customers. Customers, in general, no longer have brand loyalty and will switch at will to secure the best customer service and/or cheapest provider.
Returning to the information you have provided, Ofcom are seemingly siding with SKY on the basis of this section:
Refusal to issue a MAC
A1.11 The Communications Provider shall only refuse to issue a MAC to their End-User if:
(a) the Communications Provider has, by taking reasonable steps, been unable to validate the identity of the person requesting the MAC as the End-User;
(b)the Broadband Service contract has already been terminated;
(c) a MAC which is still within its MAC validity period has already been requested and issued by the Communications Provider in relation to the Broadband Service; and
(d) the Communications Provider has already submitted a Cease Request for the Broadband Service; and
(e)  the Communications Provider is unable to obtain a MAC from a Broadband Network Communications Provider.

and it would appear that (d) applies according to SKY/Ofcom, although, Plusnet and the wholesalers disagree. SKY are using the term "takedown" , does that equate to the same as a "cease request." In my mind, I think those terms could be interpreted differently. Cease means a complete termination of service, while "takedown" is more ambiguous. In my case, I still have a broadband service but the administrative aspect of my SKY account no longer exists. For example, I can no longer log into my SKY account and billing terminated around the 26th March.
Section A1.11 (b) also applies but again Plusnet dispute this. In a physical sense, my SKY contract hasn't been cancelled as I am still able to use the broadband service via a SKY router. While Ofcom have sided with SKY,  I am not certain whether in a purely contractual sense this correct. They argue that the service is effectively being provided as a free service by the BT wholesaler at present. This is counter claimed by Plusnet who state that the SKY TAG remains in place, which leads me to this link:
http://ask.ofcom.org.uk/help/internet-service/tagonline
This fits with what Plusnet has stated and the fact they cannot action the new service with this obstruction on the service. Effectively, you have a position where Ofcom are legalising deadlock imho and facilitating a situation like I (and probably many others) have experienced. From my conversation with Ofcom today, I felt they were more concerned about SKY's position than the consumer. The fact that I may have to change telephone lines and lose broadband for up to 2 weeks was secondary to SKY's legal position. Furthermore, I still think this is a grey area reading the above terms and is to the detriment of the consumer.
I concur with your opinion on the BT issue. I suspect if I had agreed to BT's offer this morning to transfer my broadband, I would not be facing broadband downtime
HPsauce
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Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

What isn't at all sensible is that there is (said to be) a SKY tag on the line but Sky say you are not in contract.
I'm sure the OFCOM rules say that the "receiving" ISP can deal with that, so that's down to PlusNet to sort out?
Of course none of this so-called "information" is directly-accessible by you, the various parties involved could be making deliberate or accidental errors, or just being lazy.
gphancock
Grafter
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎03-04-2014

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

Quote from: jelv
There is one totally ludicrous point about this situation. There are very strict rules about taking over the provision of services which are designed to prevent slamming (customers being grabbed by another provider without their consent). That means that if there is a tag on the line another provider cannot take the service over without either the existing provider giving a MAC which is then given to the new provider, or the existing service being cancelled (which removes the tag) and once that completes a new service being ordered. Where it gets stupid is that those rules are imposed by OFCOM, so I'm far from convinced that the advice you have been given by them is correct!

That is correct and it is something that I highlighted in the post I was typing before I read your answer. I quite agree with everything you have said.
Plusnet are correct in their assertion about the pre-existing tag. Nevertheless, according to 3 conversations I have had with Ofcom in the past 2 days, the A1.11 section overrides that. To reiterate, they appear to be favouring the former provider rather than the customer. In fact, they stated that that is always the responsibility of the new provider to resolve these issues, as they benefit from the migration transaction.
Imho the Ofcom regulations need to be revised, as they are certainly not working in the favour of the consumer. There should be some clause which prevents the TAG resulting in a cession of broadband service, when the TAG is removed. I also think that the situation needs to be avoided whereby you can be stuck in no man's land between two different providers in deadlock. Again it is the consumer that loses.
May I take this opportunity to thank everyone for their feedback. I am surprised that people have responded to my rants  Smiley
gphancock
Grafter
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎03-04-2014

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

Quote from: HPsauce
What isn't at all sensible is that there is (said to be) a SKY tag on the line but Sky say you are not in contract.
I'm sure the OFCOM rules say that the "receiving" ISP can deal with that, so that's down to PlusNet to sort out?
Of course none of this so-called "information" is directly-accessible by you, the various parties involved could be making deliberate or accidental errors, or just being lazy.

I quite agree. But Ofcom stated that SKY are completely justified in their actions.
That is true and I got to the stage last night when I was questioning the what had been said by Plusnet, SKY and Ofcom. I did expect Ofcom to be more proactive for the consumer.
It is down to Plusnet to resolve matters but Plusnet are unable to take action without the MAC or SKY terminating the broadband service.
gtowen
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Registered: ‎05-05-2013

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

Quote
May I take this opportunity to thank everyone for their feedback. I am surprised that people have responded to my rants  Smiley

Don't be surprised, the people on here, even those employed by Plusnet <weg> , care about sorting things out and helping people. Smiley
I've been helped and grateful for it but it still surprises me how bad things can get Sad
I don't know the law or the rules, but in common decency you would think by now that any company would stop playing the blame game and just sort things out.
From what I've read so far a cock up happened with the mac code an transferring the bb.......... fair enough these things happen...... so
Plusnet, Sky and BT should have a protocol to resolve these issues without causing grief to the customer. Why are they not talking to each other to resolve this.........
In the end Sky has lost a customer......suck it up and accept the loss
Plusnet have gained a customer....... maybe, if their own inaction stops it
BT, well you are BT and get paid either way............ but you control all the TAGS and infrastructure........ clean up your act !!!!!
So from a layman and concerned reader, hope it gets solved soon and the 3 idiots in control don't throw all the toys out of the pram Smiley
gphancock
Grafter
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎03-04-2014

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

As requested an update on the situation and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet yesterday.
I telephoned Plusnet before 7pm this evening and I have to say that my customer service experience was more favourable today than it was yesterday. For the first time, I felt that Plusnet understood why I was so upset about the situation and they took responsibility for this sorry mess and tried to assist. To be fair, Chris and Kelly have done the same today.  I am simply frustrated that the onus has been placed on me again to chase things again and I still feel Plusnet/wholesaler should be able to find a way around this issue.
As things stand, I have to contact the Executive Support Team with SKY and wait for BT wholesale to switch this service off. This could take up to 48-72 hours to cancel. The MAC code situation has reached a deadlock and neither party (SKY/Plusnet) will cede their position. Having read the previous post from HPsauce and jelv, I can understand both viewpoints more. I am increasingly of the view that it is Ofcom code of practice which is partly at fault.
After the broadband service terminates, I will telephone Plusnet and Plusnet will reorder my original order placed on the 17th March and will escalate my order. I think Chris stated in his post that the wholesale providers had agreed to the same escalation terms, as they were at fault for some of the issues. No promises were made, nevertheless. I am also not holding my breath and I would be surprised if I have any broadband service for 5-7 working days.
I also intend contacting Ofcom again on Monday morning for further words of wisdom.
HPsauce
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Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

Sadly, it does sound like you've been dropped "in a hole" by whoever (BT combined with PlusNet apparently) and the only practical way out is to totally exit and start again.
That unfortunately (due largely to OFCOM rules?), WILL mean being without a service, but surely the "guilty parties" can pay for you to have a 3G dongle or similar (if that helps) while they sort out the mess they have created?
And hopefully they can expedite the new service to keep this to a minimum.  Lips_are_sealed
gphancock
Grafter
Posts: 74
Registered: ‎03-04-2014

Re: Poor customer service from Plusnet and deadlock between SKY and Plusnet

Quote from: gtowen
Quote
May I take this opportunity to thank everyone for their feedback. I am surprised that people have responded to my rants  Smiley

Don't be surprised, the people on here, even those employed by Plusnet <weg> , care about sorting things out and helping people. Smiley
I've been helped and grateful for it but it still surprises me how bad things can get Sad
I don't know the law or the rules, but in common decency you would think by now that any company would stop playing the blame game and just sort things out.
From what I've read so far a cock up happened with the mac code an transferring the bb.......... fair enough these things happen...... so
Plusnet, Sky and BT should have a protocol to resolve these issues without causing grief to the customer. Why are they not talking to each other to resolve this.........
In the end Sky has lost a customer......suck it up and accept the loss
Plusnet have gained a customer....... maybe, if their own inaction stops it
BT, well you are BT and get paid either way............ but you control all the TAGS and infrastructure........ clean up your act !!!!!

So from a layman and concerned reader, hope it gets solved soon and the 3 idiots in control don't throw all the toys out of the pram Smiley

That is true. Unfortunately, I forget the good in society and the corporate world, as the bad seem to outweigh the good on some days.  I have seen a better side of Plusnet in general today, as some seem to care.  Smiley And people on this community have been lovely and helpful.
It was an initial cock up with the MAC key which was resolved but the principle problem stems from the cancellation of the order by the supplier and the lack of notification. It is from there, that the whole situation escalated.
I agree and SKY should suck it up, as they could not provide an unlimited broadband service.
Plusnet do potentially gain a customer, if they get their act together. Ofcom and I did discuss contracts and contractual fulfilment today.
Again with BT, I don't disagree. I did not realise the significance of BT in all these arrangements. I guess that was rather naive of me.
You make a very good point about a mediation service or a code of practice between the various providers who could talk and resolve this and similar situation. Yesterday I was told in no uncertain terms by Plusnet that it was my responsibility to secure a MAC code and resolve the deadlock. I thought that Plusnet should be making more of an effort at that point to ameliorate and resolve the deadlock. To reiterate, it is increasingly apparent that Ofcom code of practice actually hinders certain situations. Although, perhaps an informal practice and proactive common sense could prevail in many cases. I too have been shocked how bad things can get.  Sad
Thank you for you kind words and I too hope that something can be resolved without too many toys thrown out of prams. (That include me btw!) Wink I