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Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

jonnyhottub
Newbie
Posts: 9
Registered: 16-11-2007

Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

Any help and suggestion would be great.
I have been with plus net for as long as I can remember, maybe 10 years. I was 5 km from the exchange and over the years my connection speed has gone from 512kbps to currently 12mbps so you would say I am a happy customer.
The problem is this, although my download speeds have been going up (especial with FTTC) the errors on my line are huge and I have to reboot the router every hour to reset its self and give me connection.
This is caused as I am on the end of a very old line which has multiple terminations over the years and repairs and also included a section of aluminium.
I have over the last 3 years complained bitterly to plus net and BT have in turn sent out and engineer, but they have said there is nothing to do and lump it unless I want to go down in speed which actually won't improve the error problem.
I can't believe that either company and remember my contract is with PN can just turn their back when they know full well what the problem is but won't do anything due to cost.
There are at least 3 other houses on the same line and they have the same problem but with different service providers
How do I put pressure on PN and how do we as a community put pressure on BT wholesale.
I have a background in communications so fully understand the issues and also the bullshit give to me as excuses.
J
dick:red Offensive word removed as per forum rule.
24 REPLIES
Community Veteran
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Registered: 15-06-2007

Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

The first question is what are the full stats from your router (noise margin, speeds and attenuation and errors) and if you have a master socket with a removable lower section have you tried connecting to the test socket beneath it
jonnyhottub
Newbie
Posts: 9
Registered: 16-11-2007

Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

Hi yes in master socket and it has been replaced 4 times in last 2 years, no ether extensions on main socket just one phone line.
You can see how big the forward error corrections is just after a few mins
VDSL
Link Status Showtime
Firmware Version 1414c3
Basic Status Upstream Downstream Unit
VDSL Profile 17a
Actual Data Rate 650 18607 Kb/s
SNR 62 65 0.1dB
Advance Status Upstream Downstream Unit
Actual delay 0 0 ms
Actual INP 0 0 0.1 symbols
Actual INP 0 0 0.1 symbols
15M CV 820 1 counter
1Day CV 820 1 counter
15M FEC 0 74088 counter
1Day FEC 0 74088 counter
Total FEC 0 74088 counter
Previous Data Rate 0 0 Kbps
Attainable Rate 659 18607 Kbps
Electrical Length 321 321 0.1 dB
SNR Margin 62 62 (US0,--) 0.1 dB
SNR Margin 0 65 (US1,DS1) 0.1 dB
SNR Margin 0 N/A (US2,DS2) 0.1 dB
SNR Margin 0 N/A (US3,DS3) 0.1 dB
SNR Margin 0 N/A (US4,DS4) 0.1 dB
15M Elapsed time 128 128 secs
15M FECS 0 43 counter
15M ES 824 1 counter
15M SES 18 0 counter
15M LOSS 55 0 counter
15M UAS 39527 27 counter
1Day Elapsed time 128 128 secs
1Day FECS 0 43 counter
1Day ES 824 1 counter
1Day SES 18 0 counter
1Day LOSS 55 0 counter
1Day UAS 39527 27 counter
Total FECS 0 43 counter
Total ES 824 1 counter
Total SES 18 0 counter
Total LOSS 55 0 counter
Total UAS 39527 27 counter
Community Veteran
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Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

There is one thing which really stands out if I am reading the data correctly
Your upstream and downstream attenuation are both shown as 32.1dB which is fundamentally wrong - the upstream should be about half the downstream and following on from that your upstream speed is too low
Have you a different router to try
Also have you tried the quiet line test - dial 17070 option 2 and is the line quiet
Also can you describe the connection between the telephone point and the router - type of wire, length and is is coiled up or laid straight
EDIT - Electrical length isn't directly comparable to attenuation as it doesn't appear to take account of the frequencies used and is a Draytech peculiarity so upstream and downstream are the same and don't actually tell us very much
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Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

Quote from: jonnyhottub
unless I want to go down in speed which actually won't improve the error problem.

I don't understand that comment. A higher target noise margin will reduce the sync speed, but should also reduce the error rate.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£13/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
RPMozley
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Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

In theory, yes Jelv. But depending on the cause of the errors it may not improve things much. As always it all depends on individual circumstances. Let's wait for the OP to reply.
That's RPM to you!!
Community Veteran
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Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

Going back to the essence of the original complaint - getting BT Openreach to replace a whole line from the cab (I assume that the problem is between that and the affected users otherwise there would be a lot more people affected) isn't going to happen given the costs involved.
While awaiting the information requested one solution would be to push up the default noise margin which, despite what you have been told may well ameliorate the problem at the expense of speed. However since the problem appears to, at least partly, affect the upstream connection this may not be entirely practical or effective as the highest available default upstream noise margin is 9dB interleaved as explained here (last link in the first post) http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,119921.0.html
jonnyhottub
Newbie
Posts: 9
Registered: 16-11-2007

Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

Hi,
There was minimal noise on the line during the quiet line test.
Some more back ground
There is only a 200 meter section of aluminium cable rest is copper. total distance is about 1km from box. I don't understand why router reports only 323?
There have been many joints over the years on the line as the farmer has dug up the cable and broken it.
One major junction box sits in water! and although I have seen this with my own eyes with BT engineer they say it doesn't matter as their boxes are water proof! which I accept but what happens when the water freezes etc
I use a Draytek 2850
I have same result with standard BT open reach modem
When i was adsl my upload speed was slightly higher.
One of my questions apart from trying to find the fault is how Plusnet ( for who my contract is with) can just turn a blind eye as BT are not willing to short the problem out.
Where are Plusnet Terms and conditions which state what they should provide as a level of service?
I have been moved to a different pair on the line many times which has improved speed but FEC and therefore reliability increases.
I am not really bothered about download speed as long as its over 8mb its the upload and constant drop outs that cause the issue.
Current modem data
VDSL
Link Status Showtime
Firmware Version 1414c3
Basic Status Upstream Downstream Unit
VDSL Profile 17a
Actual Data Rate 642 18637 Kb/s
SNR 60 43 0.1dB
Advance Status Upstream Downstream Unit
Actual delay 0 0 ms
Actual INP 0 0 0.1 symbols
Actual INP 0 0 0.1 symbols
15M CV 0 3 counter
1Day CV 820 4294 counter
15M FEC 0 60 counter
1Day FEC 0 6323528 counter
Total FEC 0 6323528 counter
Previous Data Rate 0 0 Kbps
Attainable Rate 636 18637 Kbps
Electrical Length 323 323 0.1 dB
SNR Margin 60 60 (US0,--) 0.1 dB
SNR Margin 0 43 (US1,DS1) 0.1 dB
SNR Margin 0 N/A (US2,DS2) 0.1 dB
SNR Margin 0 N/A (US3,DS3) 0.1 dB
SNR Margin 0 N/A (US4,DS4) 0.1 dB
15M Elapsed time 602 602 secs
15M FECS 0 32 counter
15M ES 0 3 counter
15M SES 0 0 counter
15M LOSS 0 0 counter
15M UAS 0 0 counter
1Day Elapsed time 55502 55502 secs
1Day FECS 0 27470 counter
1Day ES 824 1262 counter
1Day SES 18 40 counter
1Day LOSS 60 0 counter
1Day UAS 39624 3917 counter
Total FECS 0 27470 counter
Total ES 824 1262 counter
Total SES 18 40 counter
Total LOSS 60 0 counter
Total UAS 39624 3917 counter
jonnyhottub
Newbie
Posts: 9
Registered: 16-11-2007

Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

Forgot to mention,
There is occasional noise on the line and this is very intermittent and only once has the actual BT engineer seen this noise other times when they arrive its clear and the only thing to go with is when Plus net log the drop outs which can happen unto 6 times a day
davidj66
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Registered: 04-09-2008

Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

The fundemental problem is that you are being supplied with broadband over a TELEPHONE line - the Universal Service Obligation on BT is all about telephony -there is no requirement to supply broadband, so as long as you having a working phone line they ain't going to spend big bucks to improve your bb quality!
There are still quite a large number of premises in the UK that cannot get any significant broadband service, and there will still be, even after the megabuck spends due over the next 2-3 years. Very unfortunate but I don't think that anyone can force BT to spend excessive amounts for these marginal lines.
Community Veteran
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Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

Can you try the BT Modem again and report the full stats
As previously requested  can you describe the connection between the telephone point and the router - type of wire, length and is is coiled up or laid straight
Quote
There is only a 200 meter section of aluminium cable rest is copper. total distance is about 1km from box. I don't understand why router reports only 323?
You misunderstand the terminology in your stats and my comments on it.
The Electrical Length  323  323  0.1 dB refers to the effective signal reduction over the whole connection from the exchange to your router and is in units of 0.1dB so the figures are 32.3dB. This is apparently a peculiarity of the Draytech system in that it reports the upstream and downstream as the same so God knows how it calculates it.
We need the figures from the BT modem to get some idea of the actual attenuation
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Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

@ Oldjim, this is FTTC, it's the distance from the cabinet that matters and not the exchange.  I suspect that 'electrical length' might be different to attenuation in the normal sense (bear in mind that FTTC has some 'shared frequencies' in the US0 and DS1 bands), I also not there appears to be nothing used in the higher frequency bands at all.
@johnnyhottub, I'm surprised that the Draytek is reporting both Actual Delay and Actual INP with zero values, these are both related to error correction and for an error-prone line I'd expect non-zero values.
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Community Veteran
Posts: 38,460
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Registered: 15-06-2007

Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

I will withdraw from this thread - I completely missed the point about FTTC given the absolutely appalling speeds  Embarrassed Embarrassed
jonnyhottub
Newbie
Posts: 9
Registered: 16-11-2007

Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

So what do I do now?
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Re: Appalling service over 10 years with PN but what to do

Hopefully a member of staff can confirm connection details to see if your router is reporting things correctly or otherwise, that might provide a bit more to go on.
Call me 'w23'
At any given moment in the universe many things happen. Coincidence is a matter of how close these events are in space, time and relationship.
Opinions expressed in forum posts are those of the poster, others may have different views.