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New Invoice Changes

BazFitzpatrick
Dabbler
Posts: 15
Thanks: 24
Registered: ‎24-07-2018

Re: New Invoice Changes

Sweeping generalisation.

I have my main business internet service via a third party company which gives my business both higher speed up & down load speeds. I have a Plusnet broadband for back up but it is only lightly used. I do not need the "full" business service package (as it is only used intermittently) but I do want to reclaim the VAT.

So to get a VAT invoice which up until 1st September Plusnet were quite happy to do (so what's changed) I now have to upgrade to a business package where the increased cost exceeds the VAT that I can no longer reclaim. Well Plusnet its a no brainer - I'll stay on the residential package and change to provider who does provide a VAT invoice at the end of the contract; which I the thinking that  many affected users will come to the conclusion.

 Short term affected Users will lose the VAT and HMRC will gain, and long term Plusnet will lose the affected Users who will go back to a neutral position (as will HMRC) . Gun->shoot-> foot comes to mind.

Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 6,951
Thanks: 989
Fixes: 60
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: New Invoice Changes

I would disagree with your interpretation. My contract of employment and thus renumeration is 100% cost to business so all VAT is reclaimable on that. Your interpretation sounds more akin to a VAT registered sole trader.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying that the business can't reimburse you for 100% of the cost of the service. It's their  choice how much they reimburse you and if they decide it's 100% then fine. That's treated as a benefit in kind.

What I'm saying is that the business must make an apportionment statement to HMRC as to the amount of business use ( see https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-input-tax/vit25400 ) and can only reclaim VAT on the business part. If they ( the business ) is stating that it's 100% for business use then they are making a false statement. If they are only claiming for the 'real' business use then it's not worth their reclaiming the VAT, so why do they need a VAT invoice ?

BazFitzpatrick
Dabbler
Posts: 15
Thanks: 24
Registered: ‎24-07-2018

Re: New Invoice Changes

That depends on the method of appointment. Probably yes if based on data used, but maybe not if based on time spent by the User. HMRC only require a "reasonable" method for apportionment for an unlimited package data usage is not sensible.

acnescar
Dabbler
Posts: 18
Thanks: 10
Registered: ‎18-07-2014

Re: New Invoice Changes


@MisterW  Thats their call - I dont make the rules, they want a VAT invoice before they will pay me In the same vein why wont Plusnet give me a VAT invoice if I ask for it? 
Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 6,951
Thanks: 989
Fixes: 60
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: New Invoice Changes

I have my main business internet service via a third party company which gives my business both higher speed up & down load speeds. I have a Plusnet broadband for back up but it is only lightly used. I do not need the "full" business service package (as it is only used intermittently) but I do want to reclaim the VAT.

@BazFitzpatrick I think your situation is different to the majority of people posting here , in that they are using a residential service to occasionally work from home. I can understand, why in your situation you don't need a full business service for your backup line. However, if that line is ONLY for business use then (technically!) despite the low usage  PN would probably argue it's against the T & C's.  If the line is for both residential use and occasional business backup , then my previous post applies , strictly speaking you can't claim all the VAT anyway.

Although I do agree with you, it's not clever for PN to suddenly decide it can't provide VAT invoices...

Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 6,951
Thanks: 989
Fixes: 60
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: New Invoice Changes

That depends on the method of appointment. Probably yes if based on data used, but maybe not if based on time spent by the User. HMRC only require a "reasonable" method for apportionment for an unlimited package data usage is not sensible.

I agree, but it's probably difficult to argue that, in a typical occasional work from home, that > 50% of the use is business.

I guess PN's argument is that that level of use is against their T & C's anyway and if the real business usage level is used then it's really not worth the business reclaiming the VAT anyway.

TBH I use my account to WFH , in fact I'm doing it now, but the company has decided that it's not worth the hassle trying to reclaim the VAT.

NB if anyone at work see's this and wonders why I'm on the forum when I should be working , then I'm on a tea-breakWink

Community Veteran
Posts: 5,659
Thanks: 1,554
Fixes: 37
Registered: ‎16-10-2014

Re: New Invoice Changes

@acnescar - That’s a shame that your employer won’t pay you without a VAT invoice, maybe this could be addressed with a chat to management, after all this change is not of your doing. And if they are not willing to change then just work to rule and ignore anything outside of your contracted hours.

Like @MisterW I too work from home and I pay for both of my DSL lines out of my own pocket. Having said that on the monthly expenses sheet we have there are fixed entries for Internet  / Phone @ £25 and Power @ £25 I don’t even need to ask for them they’re there.

And for those looking I’m just skiving I had my coffee break ages ago. Grin

SM_queries
Hooked
Posts: 8
Thanks: 15
Registered: ‎24-07-2018

Re: New Invoice Changes

It's interesting that the arguments that effectively support Plusnet's change of invoicing are tending towards something like -

"Why do you want a vat invoice ?

Are you using Plusnet's service for business ?"

The implication is that  we, the users that are VAT registered (i.e individuals or businesses), are supposedly taking advantage of Plusnet's lower Residential rates but I doubt those arguing for Plusnet are aware that it is Plusnet themselves who are acting less than correct - in this case towards HMRC.

By declaring on their invoices "This is not a VAT invoice" and not showing their registration number, I believe it is the case that Plusnet can then delay their own payments to HMRC of the VAT collected. Normal VAT rules call for VAT collected in one quarter to be paid to HMRC within a few days of the end of the quarter. That causes normal businesses difficulties at times when they want to invoice their client near the end of the quarter knowing that they will have to pay HMRC the VAT even though their client might not pay themselves for a month or more.

In the case of Plusnet, they get their VAT paid by us in advance - I believe their business accounts also pay in advance so they are in a good position financially unlike normal trading businesses. However, they also get this extra advantage of more delay through the invoice changes they are now pursuing. I am unsure how long they can delay HMRC settlement through this route but you can imagine how finacially attractive it is for any business to have this extra cash flow to finance their business having received 20% extra up-front from all of us.

The loss to HMRC from big business is exacerbated via these methods that were never foreseen when Parliament first introduced VAT.

Community Veteran
Posts: 5,659
Thanks: 1,554
Fixes: 37
Registered: ‎16-10-2014

Re: New Invoice Changes


@SM_queries wrote:
The implication is that  we, the users that are VAT registered (i.e individuals or businesses), are supposedly taking advantage of Plusnet's lower Residential rates ...

Well aren’t you, if you weren’t taking advantage then you’d be using a business account!

 

corringham
Pro
Posts: 207
Thanks: 111
Fixes: 2
Registered: ‎25-09-2015

Re: New Invoice Changes

Perhaps it is worth looking at the differences between a Residential and a Business account.

A residential ADSL account can currently be had for £19.99, and a business account for £17+VAT=£20.40. So the prices are somewhat similar.

Both come with a dynamic IP address, but both allow a static IP address to be enabled once the account is running.

Business accounts have traffic management. 

The business help-desk is 24/7, so you can report a fault at any time.

Business telephone faults have a faster resolution target.

Broadband fault resolution targets are the same for both.

Neither have an option for IPv6 (unlike business accounts from most business oriented ISPs).

Business accounts get a VAT receipt (whether or not the business is VAT registered, or even whether or not the customer is in fact a business).

The business account does not have the sort of SLA that other (more expensive) ISPs provide, and apart from the faster phone fix is the same as the residential.

So, if you need a Business quality connection, then Plusnet isn't really suitable IMHO. If you don't need a SLA, IPv6, fast broadband fix times etc, then there is not really any difference between a business or residential account (T&Cs apart) and most people would choose whichever gave the better deal at the time. Which is just what most people have done.

I'm not sure why Plusnet see the need to restrict the usage in the T&Cs, as the products and the prices they charge are almost identical.

I've been checking other ISPs, and almost no others restrict residential accounts to exclude working from home. Many actually promote residential accounts as being suitable for home-working! In fact even Plusnet advertise their residential fibre as being "

superfast broadband for all your internet usage

which doesn't make it clear that you are not allowed to look at more than a couple of work e-mails occasionally!

LawrenceA
Hooked
Posts: 9
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎09-09-2018

Re: New Invoice Changes

"From 1st September you might notice that your bill looks a little bit different. We're giving our invoices a facelift and making them much easier to understand." Claims the original post.

 

When are your customers going to be allowed to see these bills ?

The system seems to have been completely broken since go-live. In the example below I have been billed £12.56 for intemised calls, yet according to the billing system I have made none. (Except I know I have because I could see them before the updates on the 1st September.)

 

PlusNet, you are NOT doing me proud. You are doing my head in.

billsnip.png

Superuser
Superuser
Posts: 13,038
Thanks: 4,332
Fixes: 26
Registered: ‎22-08-2007

Re: New Invoice Changes

Phone call break down for bills prior to the change over are available via the phone control panel.
SM_queries
Hooked
Posts: 8
Thanks: 15
Registered: ‎24-07-2018

Re: New Invoice Changes

MOOK'sreply only goes to show the sterile nature that this discussion has become.

 

It's no longer trying to understand why Plusnet made the invoice changes that they have done without any logical explanations, it's simply have a go at those who question the changes.

For the sake of clarity, it is well known that the users that take advantage of Plusnet's bandwidth in order of activity are:

1) Netflix streaming

2) Youtube

3) Spotify

All Residential users.

wildthing666
Grafter
Posts: 41
Thanks: 6
Registered: ‎11-07-2016

Re: New Invoice Changes

Have PN increased their prices? I have PN phone & up to 76Mb BB with caller ID I was paying £19.99 and the yearly line rental but this year let the yearly line slide I have just noticed the monthly bill and the previous months are £39.98. Has there been an increase in either the line rental or BB  or Caller ID charges recently? 

Longliner
Rising Star
Posts: 60
Thanks: 11
Fixes: 1
Registered: ‎22-10-2014

Re: New Invoice Changes

You'll pay more for monthly line rental than annually in advance, but it shouldn't be as much as £20. Any PN customer is well advised to check every bill because this forum is carrying all too many threads about overcharging and double charging due to the new billing system. Oddly enough the new system doesn't appear to undercharge its customers Undecided