I called my Husbands mobile and it cost me £45!

[#1]

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@Townman wrote:
Let's be absolutely clear here - this is a BT Openreach issue. They determine the charge band for the number called.

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Nonsense. What Plusnet's suppliers charge Plusnet is irrelevant as end users do not have a relationship with the supplier. Plusnet is offering customers inclusive calls to mobiles and then charging for some of them in a process which is far from transparent to the end user. If Plusnet respected their customers they would immediately stop charging for these calls and refund any charges made to date until the situation is clarified.

[#2]

@MisterW,
That's most interesting. It implies that those CPs have unilaterally made changes to the charge band mapping - which suggests within their billing system they change the charge band reported by BTOR to something different,

I can understand PN seeking a correction at source rather than needing to add fudge it rules to their billing system.

[#3]

The charging data we receive shows the call as a Wifi call

Would someone care to define what a 'wifi call' is supposed to be because I'm not sure one actually exists!.

I believe we've established that It's certainly not a call routed by a mobile network using wifi. The originating network is not informed ( or at all concerned ) about how the call is routed by the mobile network.  

[#4]

That's most interesting. It implies that those CPs have unilaterally made changes to the charge band mapping - which suggests within their billing system they change the charge band reported by BTOR to something different,

No, they've just applied sensible logic to the obvious incorrect banding of calls by BTOR/BTw. Far easier and quicker than trying to get the banding changed. Let's face it, the BT price list and SKY's are dated 2015! so it's been like this for some while. If BTOR ain't corrected the classification by now they ain't going to do it in a hurry!

[#5]

@Anonymous,
It's just not that simple. Charging information is delivered from BTOR to CPs with the industry standard charge band attached. The suggestion here is that SOME numbers are in the wrong hand. Correction by inspection of every charge item adds complexity to billing systems. Ultimately it's such point fixes which completely breaks commercial systems. This problem needs resolution at source .... possibly it's the owners of these number - SKY!

[#6]

I can't understand why Plusnet cannot change their billing systems to allow these wrongly assigned wifi calls to be charged as mobile calls or included calls for those with such packages.

By pursuing the issue with BTOR, it must be assumed that they believe the charge band is incorrect. Nevertheless the attitude from their response on this thread is to continue billing the customer, and not provide any notification to customers that they may be charged inadvertently for some mobile calls.

I agree the issue needs to be sorted, but suggest that Plusnet have got their priorities wrong.

[#7]

Since BT retail, Talktalk and SKY are probably dealing directly with BTOR and get the call details from them whereas PlsuNet get theirs from BTw, I thought 'let's check another BTw supplier'.

So here's the details for IDNET https://www.idnet.net/voice_products/specialcalls.php . As you can see in the mobile section it lists all the charge bands but treats them all as mobile numbers!!!

Calls charge at IDNet standard mobile rate & included with IDNet Anytime Plus call package.

I think you might call that 'the defence rests your honor'!

[#8]

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@maranello wrote:

I can't understand why Plusnet cannot change their billing systems to allow these wrongly assigned wifi calls to be charged as mobile calls or included calls for those with such packages.

If this is wrongly being charged for we want to make sure we eliminate all the incorrect charges. This is done by ensuring that the charging data we get from our suppliers is correct. 

By pursuing the issue with BTOR, it must be assumed that they believe the charge band is incorrect.

We do, but we don't believe all charges that come through in this band are incorrect. This is proving less of an issue for some other CP's as they include calls in this charging category on their plans as standard. 

[#9]

@JonoH

Thanks for clarifying the Plusnet position. BTOR are charging Plusnet incorrectly for some calls. Plusnet are passing on these charges to its customers because they cannot determine which calls are being wrongly charged.

 provide any notification to customers that they may be charged inadvertently for some mobile calls.

Isn't this possible?

[#10]

We do, but we don't believe all charges that come through in this band are incorrect.

TBH I don't think that ANY charges that come through from BTw in the fm & fw bands are incorrect!. I obviously can't see the BTw charges but looking at the BT retail charges for these bands you can see that each band has different charges ( but within a small range ) presumably down to the different termination charges from each mobile operator.

The main problem is that the fw bands are incorrectly listed as 'wifi calls' , they are NOT!. This is not that the calls are incorrectly banded, it is that they are incorrectly described!.

Where PN's position is indefensible, is that these calls are not 'uk mobile' calls and therefore not included in plans. The evidence from other ISP's charges shows otherwise...

[#11]

 @MisterW

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@MisterW wrote:

The main problem is that the fw bands are incorrectly listed as 'wifi calls' , they are NOT!. This is not that the calls are incorrectly banded, it is that they are incorrectly described!.

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@MisterW wrote:
The evidence from other ISP's charges shows otherwise...

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Does it?

fw10 shows as a wifi call with:
BT
EE
Post office
o2
KCOM

Virgin media shows fw10 as other and also states Discounted and inclusive mobile calls are to all UK mobiles, This doesn't include other services beginning with 07 such as Personal Numbers, Mobile WiFi, or Paging services etc.

Vodafone list fw10 as a virtual mobile

Sky list it as it as Other Mobile Numbers

I stopped looking after these ones.

As a side note, while IDNET may charge fw10 as a mobile, they don't actually provide a network for it as they do with the other numbers and don't appear to show any charges for wifi calls.

Ultimately as it currently stands, we need to wait for more information from our suppliers.

[#12]

@JonoH you're completely missing the point! AFAIK There is no such thing as a wifi call as far as the PSTN network is concerned. If there is then perhaps you can tell us what it is ?

BT seem to be 'describing' some fw banded calls as wifi calls for some reason. Yes, other ISP's use the (wrong) BT provided description BUT they accept that they are really mobile calls.

[#13]

Looking at the charge bands there appears to be no mention of SKY as a mobile provider and there are large gaps, where it is not specified which network the numbers belong to, is this the problem that BTOR has not properly classified and updated their records to show the more recent acquisition of these numbers by SKY using the O2 network? Can I clarify as this thread has become very long, a Wifi call would not be possible since my Husband has no Internet and only has a mobile and I called him through my PN landline. He has called SKY who have confirmed they are using the O2 network to piggyback their mobile phone service. Plusnet did refund me for the call charges in this case, but until this is rectified I cannot call this number. PN is right to question their supplier, because they can only offer the anytime free mobile service if it is at a reasonable rate for themselves. I am sure that since BTOR is now a separate company from BT/PN/EE that it will become more important for them to set the price point correctly and to seek reimbursement for any losses incurred. Though this is indeed their business not the PN customers who should only be charged for what is stated in their contract, ie. all mobile calls starting 07 are free anytime up to an hour. This however is mostly a problem because customers are not aware that they may be being charged, since most calls to mobiles are conciderably shorter than landline calls from habit, it is likely that the majority will not notice a slight increase in cost on their bill. PN may or may not have been aware, but now that they know that we are, I am sure that this will get fixed ASAP.

[#14]

I admit I was astounded when I first read this thread. An ISP getting its data wrong. And so wrong who would have thought.

I suppose that old computer saying applies here - junk in junk out.

And apparently it's definitely not buck passing.

Just school yard he said she said then.

[#15]

Not specifically blaming PlusNet here, but there should be a system introduced (by the network, BTW Presumably) that warns the call is chargable, do you want to continue? I don't know if that is technically possible.

Years ago I used to get that on my mobile when I had to call 0800 numbers - I got some message warning me it is not free on a mobile, unlike it is on a landline.

Very easy assumption to make that anything 07* is a UK mobile, therefore you think "Oh I won't be charged". I guess many people like me on contract who have inclusive or unlimited minutes.

I hadn't realised it is much more complicated than that.