Openreach / Plusnet relationship inadequate. Atrocious line installation.

[#1]

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it would be really useful if Openreach made their employees aware of this!!

Re the previous fault I mentioned feedback was given, when time allows I'll submit a complaint to Openreach to feedback about it.

[#2]

Maybe this was the reason that Openreach sent such an accommodating engineer around this time. He was so obviously trying his very, very best to to be helpful.

[#3]

Good news, certainly hoping that it's sorted following the engineer visit?

[#4]

All seems fine so far.
Thanks a lot for your help Matt. Excellent Plusnet service as usual.

[#5]

As I also reported in another thread we did eventually get BT back to fix a problem with cutting off ring tone to two of our four wired extensions at the master socket during an FTTC related filtered master faceplate install.  The problem was caused by a clearly not very experienced temporary BT contractor.
In our case the engineer visit to put it right was booked with BT whilst we were still their phone line customer but already a Plusnet broadband customer but the engineer visit was 10 days away on the day after the phone line moved to Plusnet as BT clearly wanted to send out one of their own staff engineers to fix up the mess up by the contractor and their staff engineers were very booked up due to the amount of FTTC install work being done in this area at present.
However its worth nothing that Plusnet front line customer service staff initially absolutely denied that loss of ring tone at an extension could be Plusnet's responsibility even as the phone line provider.  Fortunately the engineer booked whilst we were still BT phone customers did turn up, even though it was the day after the phone line moved to Plusnet and he did put right the lack of ring tone on both the defective extensions.
However if your phone line had already moved to Plusnet when you spot the extension problems I can see very big problems getting a BT engineer back to resolve them free of charge as Plusnet front line customer service staff have been absolutely trained (wrongly) that an extension socket fault can never be Plusnet's responsibility, even if the extension was cut off when BT fitting a filtered faceplate during an FTTC install.
If you encounter this situation then do not accept what Plusnet staff tell you and both post on these forums about it and demand further escalation on the phone with Plusnet customer services.  If this still fails then email the Plusnet CEO using the email address listed at www.ceo.email.com

[#6]

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that an extension socket fault can never be Plusnet's responsibility, even if the extension was cut off when BT fitting a filtered faceplate during an FTTC install.

Sorry to hear about the problems you've had with this.
FYI Extensions aren't our responsibility unless fitted as part of the FTTC install.
let me know if you still need any help.

[#7]

Unbelievable!
So if the engineer damages the users property (his previously working extension) during the FTTC installation neither you nor OpenReach is liable?
Just how far does that non-liability extend? What if he drops and breaks the users phone handset? Or going more extreme physically damages the property (e.g. puts a ladder through a window)?

[#8]

There's a number that you can call (BT Legal) if the engineer causes actual damage.
This is referring to extension wiring, not damage to property.

[#9]

Quote from: James

There's a number that you can call (BT Legal) if the engineer causes actual damage.

Then if such a number actually exists why haven't you provided it for your customers to use in the numerous cases where BT Opereach engineers or in particular BT Openreach's many current FTTC home broadband installation subcontractors are managing to cut off a customer's wiring during an FTTC Filtered Master Faceplate install?
Also with great respect it has actually been your choice at Plusnet to induce customers to move their whole phone line rental to you in order to get a lower broadband rental price for the first 6 months (not available if the phone line is left with BT) but it is this act of moving the phone line to BT as FTTC is installed to the customer home that may leave both BT Retail and Plusnet claiming they are not liable for the damage done to the phone extension wiring.  If the customer just moved their broadband to Plusnet but kept their phone line with BT then calling out a BT Openreach engineer to fix the issue via a customer's BT Retails phone account appears to be no problem.
There also is a bevy of dispute resolution cases lodged with Ofcom between other phone networks who use BT's network and BT that clearly indicate that BT Openreach is inclined to discriminate against phone suppliers other than BT Retail by not fixing faults free of charge that would have been fixed free of charge for BT Retail phone customers.

[#10]

The number is for physical damage, not internal wiring being disconnected.
We would generally try and reach a compromise at our cost for customers who raise complaints regarding this sort of thing.

[#11]

Quote from: James

We would generally try and reach a compromise at our cost for customers who raise complaints regarding this sort of thing.

In principle I don't see why Plusnet should have to pay anything more if BT Openreach accidentally disconnects the customer's extension wiring when installing the filtered faceplate.  After all BT Openreach gets a fee from Plusnet for the filtered faceplate install (just as they do for the ongoing phone and broadband service) and this should pay for them to put right any mistakes made by their staff or subcontractors.
It may of course be that this is precisely the reason why phone service moves to Plusnet a couple of weeks later than the broadband install so that BT cannot then try to deny liability for anything that goes wrong with the phone line whilst the Openreach engineers are messing around with the customer's wiring at the local Cabinet and/or at their home faceplate to get the FTTC service working.
The current problem seems to be that front line Plusnet staff  are being trained to suggest that the cutting off extensions following a BT Openreach vist are the customer's problem to deal with at their cost rather than in fact being a BT Openreach problem that needs reporting through BT Retail for so long as phone service is still provided by BT.  Although it has to be said that I initially tried to report the fault to BT Retail, was then sent to Plusnet customer service by BT Retail (who had suggested that as the wiring was altered by an Openreach engineer working for Plusnet re the FTTC broadband service it was Plusnet's job to call out BT Openreach) and Plusnet then tried to deny liability altogether and then subsequently sent me back to BT Retail again after a further high level complaint.  At this stage BT Retail agreed to call out an Openreach engineer but as they wanted it to be a real BT engineer (not a temporary subcontractor) the wait time was 10 days.  That put the visit the day after phone line rental moved to Plusnet.  Although I was not at all confident that the BT Openreach engineer would show up on the appointed day to fix the extensions (as the phone line was now with Plusnet) fortunately they did actually turn up and fix all the outstanding issues.
So my point is you need to improve your current relationship with BT Openreach and also improve the training of your front line advisers to get them to accept extension wiring faults created during filtered master socket installs to provide Plusnet FTTC in the way that at least senior BT Retail customer service staff are willing to do..
Whilst instances of engineers breaking a customer's priceless china ornaments or accidentally bringing down their curtail rails etc no doubt do happen these will clearly be few and far between compared to disconnection of extension sockets originally installed by BT engineers (the reason why they are hard wired in to the master socket itself and do not run to an extension plug in to the master socket).

[#12]

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In principle I don't see why Plusnet should have to pay anything more if BT Openreach accidentally disconnects the customer's extension wiring when installing the filtered faceplate.

In principle I agree however sometimes the world just isn't a very fair place.
At the end of the day, the contract is with us so we are responsible for reaching a mutually beneficial agreement.

[#13]

Quote from: James

At the end of the day, the contract is with us so we are responsible for reaching a mutually beneficial agreement.

The contract is with Plusnet for the FTTC install but BT Retail is always still responsible for the customer's phone line and master socket continuing to work as normal until the phone line is actually handed over to Plusnet
At the end of the day a helpful senior customer services manager at BT in India (the front line adviser denied they had any responsibility as he had been trained to) could see the problem that existed and that it was clearly the BT Group's fault (whether or not it was the BT Retail, BT Openreach or Plusnet arms of the BT Group who ought to pick up the bill) and was prepared to call BT Openreach back to fix their defective workmanship while Plusnet was not.
As someone very interested in this issue I would say there are many examples where BT Openreach refuses to carry out work for domestic customers of other phone companies like TalkTalk and Sky or Plusnet who still use the BT Openreach network (at least as far as the exchange) that they will much more readily agree to carry out where the customer phone company is BT Retail.  This shouldn't happen under competition rules but seems to happen in practice because of the way in which BT Openreach interacts with other companies using its network compared to BT Retail (who they effectively treat as being "in house" and therefore have a much smoother communication path with).
Since phone line rental is actually no cheaper with Plusnet than BT (in fact I think it costs £1 per quarter more for the typical phone customer who will want to have Caller Display) and people only end up taking it because they get a discount on the first 6 months broadband I think this issue does need to be addressed at high level within Plusnet.  I am sure that your CEO, with his many former work connections with senior personnel at BT, is actually best placed to do this at a strategic level (i.e. the general policy on how these faults get picked up and resolved with BT Openreach by your front line staff - although not each case by case event) so that it is then easier for your front line staff to call back BT Openreach to remedy their own defective work..

[#14]

Quote from: Capvermell

Since phone line rental is actually no cheaper with Plusnet than BT (in fact I think it costs £1 per quarter more for the typical phone customer who will want to have Caller Display)

Not exactly
Monthly line rental inc. CLI: BT is £3.77 more like for like or £0.47 more without evening calls
Annual line rental inc. CLI: BT is £2.57 more like for like or £0.73 less without evening calls
Based on figures collected today

[#15]

Quote from: PeeGee

Monthly line rental inc. CLI: BT is £3.77 more like for like or £0.47 more without evening calls Annual line rental inc. CLI: BT is £2.57 more like for like or £0.73 less without evening calls Based on figures collected today

Is that £3.77 more paying monthly over a 12 month period or £3.77 more each and every month? If the latter this is presumably only because BT only provides free CLI if you subscribe for at least 12 months?
Either way the fact that BT Opereach still charges for CLI when it has been a free service since at least the inception of GSM mobiles (when my experience of them started in 1997) if not earlier is a total outrage.  Just as it is an outrage that they are allowed to charge extra for Choose To Refuse, Anonymous Call Rejection and Call Barring.
In any event the only reason for being lured in to Plusnet line rental in my relative's case was that it saved a further £10 per month on Fibre Unlimited over the first 6 months.  This discount was not available if you did not move your phone line to Plusnet.  In hindsight I suspect BT's £26 per month product might have been better as it came with a YouView box.  Although I suppose that 18 x £6 plus 6 x £10  (or £168 over the 18 month contract period) is a substantial chunk of the cost of a Humax YouView box.