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the election is unimportant

thisoldman
Grafter
Posts: 1,220
Thanks: 2
Registered: 06-04-2009

the election is unimportant

The outcome of the elction is not important.   It was discussed at our recent think tank conference, and the universal
agreement was that  the economy or rather sorting out our economic woes is the key  probelm facing our nation.

as I have no wish to scare any of you let me simply repeat what i said a few days ago.
Greece is the beginning of all our woes. Our economy is in a terrible mess and to sort it all out is going to require
painfull and draconian measures.
[Moderator's note by Thomas (Be3G): bold tag fixed.]
37 REPLIES
WildRose52
Grafter
Posts: 507
Registered: 23-02-2010

Re: the election is unimportant


So what do we reckon will be all those painful measures?
Looking at the Greece situation, they`ve mentioned things like :
pensions froze.
pensions cut.
Tax hikes
Wage freezes.
At a guess, I envisage alot of jobs in the private sector being cut.
Certainly an attack on pensions and also on retirement age.
Definitely Tax and VAT hikes.
Whether they`ll attack the benefits system remains to be seen.
Wage freezes too probably.
Cameron is also the one that was singing for a Youth force - so
may well be seeing ppl needing to work for benefits & pensions.
Big question though:  will they be stopping so many expenses for MPs?
It certainly must have been very harsh measures in Greece to cause the
people to react the way they have done.
WildRose52
Grafter
Posts: 507
Registered: 23-02-2010

Re: the election is unimportant


Perhaps this gives us a much clearer indication of what we might expect to see :-

Romania braces for IMF austerity
BUCHAREST – ROMANIA braced on Friday for a wave of protests after the president unveiled austerity cuts in public sector wages and pensions to meet a deficit target set by the IMF and avoid a Greek emergency scenario.
‘This programme to cut public expenses was inevitable,’ President Traian Basescu said during a press conference on Thursday after a meeting with IMF and European Union representatives in Bucharest.
Wages in the public sector are to be cut by 25 per cent, Mr Basescu said, adding that ‘all salaries, including the minimum one, will be affected.’
Pensions will be slashed by 15 per cent, just like unemployment benefits.

http://www.infowars.com/romania-braces-for-imf-austerity/

So, wage cuts of 25%
Pensions cut by 25%
Benefits cut by 15%

Might not look all that drastic - until we consider there`ll still be Tax increases and VAT increases.
Will probably just lead to more crime.....  and more ppl having more debts as they have to abandon
their lesser important monthly payments.
More people will default on their homes.....
More will probably throw in the towel and think:  `not worth working`
More will try to claim benefits like Working Tax Credit because they`ll then be on a much lower wage,
and for some that might even be helpful cause they`ll then qualify for free childcare.
It`ll never solve the overall problem.    There is no solution to the governments debt.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul just wont work.

WildRose52
Grafter
Posts: 507
Registered: 23-02-2010

Re: the election is unimportant


ERROR....
Should read :  Pensions cut by 15%  (not 25)
my apology.
torbayguy
Grafter
Posts: 207
Registered: 18-03-2010

Re: the election is unimportant

To be honest I dont see a problem with cutting public sector pay.
In my experiance, public secter staff have better conditions, more tea breaks, less work load, weekends off, better pay packages and leave, and generally dont work more than a hour or so before a ciggy or tea break kicks, all compaired with private sector jobs.
They only strike and moan so much because theyre bored!!!
thisoldman
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Posts: 1,220
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Registered: 06-04-2009

Re: the election is unimportant

I have painters in house so i will not be able to post till next week. Please remember that out think tank is made up of retired univ dons and our recent meeting covered what we think will be the effects of  our sinking economy on.........society,psychologica leffects. medical effects.political consequences;etc etc.
Whether clegg joins brown or cameron will have no affect on the consequenses to follow.Some items may be delayed, but in all sincerity i warn you all now that the days of reckoning are fast approaching.  Just look at world stock markets at the moment.
You could make a start by carefully scrutinizing your family budgets.
Greece is the beginning of all our woes.    I stand by that statement.
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,291
Thanks: 2
Registered: 10-08-2007

Re: the election is unimportant

Quote from: thisoldman
I have painters in house so i will not be able to post till next week.
Why is that, are they painting your computer?
What the Greek government and others are having to do now is only the same as most business have had to do over the last two years.
Many businesses have failed in the recession and many have have had to reduce in size because of reduced demand. These actions were taken to enable survival and to establish a stable platform to take them forward in a leaner & meaner way.
The economic recovery will require more of the same all round.
I think it is unfortunate that government threw public money at large corporations to "protect" the economy and effectively sacrificed thousands of good small bussiness and their employees.
The banks and their highly paid "bankers" are laughing at me and people like me. they have their status quo and we are all in the poo.
I would have let the the the economic system take it's course and let the banks fail, allowing natural recovery.
Yes there is some pain coming for everyone.
*just saying
SRD
Grafter
Posts: 300
Registered: 29-04-2010

Re: the election is unimportant

Quote from: thisoldman
The outcome of the elction is not important.   It was discussed at our recent think tank conference, and the universal
agreement was that  the economy or rather sorting out our economic woes is the key  probelm facing our nation.

as I have no wish to scare any of you let me simply repeat what i said a few days ago.
Greece is the beginning of all our woes. Our economy is in a terrible mess and to sort it all out is going to require
painfull and draconian measures.
[Moderator's note by Thomas (Be3G): bold tag fixed.]
The term "People in Ivory Towers" springs to mind.
WildRose52
Grafter
Posts: 507
Registered: 23-02-2010

Re: the election is unimportant

Torbayguy >  To be honest I dont see a problem with cutting public sector pay. < <

Dont people like nurses, doctors, police, teachers all come under public sector jobs?
If any of these find their backs against the wall then they do have the ability to go on strike.
Then it just becomes a case of looking at what the consequences of any long term action
would be.
These people are not in the same league as the wealthy bankers.
Therefore I could not possibly condone cutting any of their pay by 25%  (percentage here
being based on what is being said for Romania)
In the current economic climate, many people are already struggling to pay their mortgage,
and therefore if they took a 25% pay cut, then it could lead to families becoming homeless.
The UK so far as not seen no where near the repurcussions of the economic woes as
what America has.    I dont know whether any of you are aware of how many TENT CITIES
are currently springing up across America.    Do we want to see that happen here?
When you condone such a pay cut Torbayguy, I dont believe you have thought of the consequences :
If the police go on strike....  there`d be an escalation in crime.
If medical staff go on strike....  lives would be put at risk.
If teaching staff go on strike...  many parents would need to stay home from work to look after their children
(and this in itself brings consequences)
If things like unemployment benefits were chunked by 15%, I believe this would cause major unrest.
Granted there are some who just will not work.
In contrast, the greater number have lost their job through no fault of their own.
When services grind to a halt, and there is unrest on the streets, then that is when a Govt can put the military
on the street - what they term `martial law`
That is not something you would want to see happen, because martial law, believe it or not, can & often does
restrict a person`s freedom to move around (curfews from dusk til dawn being just an example)
I believe we need to be careful what we wish for.
A man by the name of Martin Niemoeller once wrote these note-worthy words of warning :-
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Tent cities - U.S. - victims of the recession
Tent city highlights US homes crisis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7297093.stm
US tent cities highlight new realities as recession wears on
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/26/tent-city-california-recession-economy
In hard times, tent cities rise across the country
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26776283/

torbayguy
Grafter
Posts: 207
Registered: 18-03-2010

Re: the election is unimportant

To be honest I couldnt care less about America.
Police are not allowed to strike, besides they are well paid and get plenty of benefits, so a pay cut would hardly affect them.
Nurses- they do a good job and work hard, they can keep their pay.
Doctors- they are well paid so could easily afford a pay cut, and with the short shifts they work they could fit in another hour or 2 over time to make back the money.
Teachers- My uncle is a head teacher and is loaded with cash! Teachers are well paid, work short shifts, and have loads on annual leave, they can afford a cut.
Compaire jobs, like for like with public and private companies, and you will find public workers earn alot more and work alot less than the private sector.
Let the misserable gits at the Job Centre get off their lazy backsides and do my job for a week, then they will find out what working for a living is!!
Oh, shall I have a fag, a cup of coffee, or shall I go on strike?  hmm, all 3 sounds good!!
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,699
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: the election is unimportant

This is such a load of "something I heard from a guy at the pub, who was told by his uncle's second cousin"!
Torbay guy - "in your experiance" (sic) indicates that you clearly know exactly what local government employees earn, what their leave entitlement is, and exactly what their local conditions say they're entitled to.  Please enlighten me.  I work for local government, and I wouldn't claim to know all that for anyone but myself.  Exactly what is your experience of working for the public sector (other than your own, uninformed prejudices)?
John
Community Veteran
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Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: the election is unimportant

You make a good point torbayguy. I have a very high regard for our nurses, doctors and police but it is a myth that they are poorly paid.  I think this may have been the case years ago but not now.
A newly qualified nurse will earn £21k and an established nurse at the top of her profession can earn £79k.
A newly appointed police constable earns £23k rising to £36k with service and a newly appointed sergeant starts on £36k.
GPs are extremely well paid with many earning over £100k.
These figures do not include London weighting and other special allowances.
The average weekly wage in the UK is £25k.
There is no suggestion that cuts will be made to these wages by any government but that wage restraint will have to be exercised to help tackle the debt we are facing as a country.  
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,699
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: the election is unimportant

Fair point Artmo - I can't argue with your figures, because I don't know, but what you appear to be saying is that a very few nurses can earn anything up to £79K (presumably with many years' experience, and having taken extra qualifications and studied hard to improve their skills and abilities).  While many will earn below average wages, having spent only around 3 years training after achieving a reasonably good education to start with.
Speaking as someone who has seen his real wages (after inflation) fall consistently over the last 20 + years, and received no pay increase at all in the last 2 or 3 years, while being encouraged to "work smarter not harder" for the same amount of time, I can tell you that there is a limit to how much more local government can take in terms of cuts.  Whatever the labour government says about the amounts of extra cash that they've been giving to local government, I can say definitively that local authority budgets in the south of England have had year on year cuts every year that labour has been in power.
Perhaps someone out there, can tell us how much a bank worker earns (often without any qualifications), or how much someone working on the production line at the car factories earn? (since everyone appears to be experts in working for local government)
John
Community Veteran
Posts: 18,551
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Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: the election is unimportant

John, I am not an expert in local government and was very clear to only quote wages for parts of the public sector I know about.  Yes, few nurses will earn £79k but no qualified nurse will earn less than £21k.  I appreciate there are many in the health service who will earn less than this but not if they are a qualified nurse.
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,699
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: the election is unimportant

So I understood you correctly - a qualified nurse has spent 3 years training in order to earn less than the average wage.  Huh
Also artmo, I appreciate that you commented on specified areas that you know about.  The people that I get a bit wound up by the the ones who make sweeping statements about local government, without a shred of factual evidence, simply because "everyone knows" that people who work for local government are lazy and inefficient, probably stupid, and anyway "I pay their wages".
I've never said to anyone at Tescos or Barclays that I pay their wages, yet it's a perfectly normal parthian shot for anyone leaving a council office without getting their own way.
John