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The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

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The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

There is to be a vote today by the American FCC as regards the repeal of Net Neutrality and if they get their way, which I think they will, this is a whole new can of worms.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/42341736/

The Internet doesn't need this, but as usual there is nothing we can do about it.

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rongtw
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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

@Mook i agree the net should stay neutral , this is all about the bigger ISP making more money at our expense Sad

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jab1
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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

@Mook A scary thought.Crazy2

And @rongtw I agree with you.

John
wisty
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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

I am not particularly worried. I think things over her will be slightly different.

In the US, as I understand things, most people have a single (effective monopoly) supplier of internet and phone services. If you get your landline service from (say) Verizon, then Verizon will also be your ISP. There are multiple "competing" suppliers, but each tends to have a monopoly in a given geography. The only real competition tends to be cable, and that is (as here with Virgin) not universally available.

Apart from Virgin cable, the new (very small) fibre operators (Gigaclear etc.) and mobile phone Internet we have many competing ISP's all of whom buy the underlying telecoms capacity from Openreach. 

In theory in the UK if an ISP starts to play the kind of pricing tricks that are being talked about (e.g. charging consumers extra for, or limiting, access to Netflix, or Facebook etc.), then users will either accept it, or vote with their feet and switch ISP. That kind of consumer choice is not available in the US.

If Openreach started to charge on the basis of the nature of the traffic ( rather than the volume), I would expect the regulators to step in fairly smartly. We may not universally like the Openreach model, but it does have some advantages.

 

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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

Well @wisty, I am as there is a huge amount of content that comes from the US, and if that’s ‘taxed’ then all of us will be affected. As for your theory, if a US carrier has to pay extra for content then they’re going to spread that cost amongst those that use it. I don’t think OpenReach has an American arm so they must buy their connectivity from somewhere and who is to say that that provider isn’t going to add additional cost to supply OpenReach to cover theirs?

rongtw
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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

From sky news https://news.sky.com/story/net-neutrality-what-a-us-vote-means-for-the-uk-11170224

Net Neutrality: What You Need to Know Now 

https://www.savetheinternet.com/net-neutrality-what-you-need-know-now

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wisty
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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

I agree that there is a huge amount of content that comes from the US, but you have to be very careful to distinguish three sets of links.

1) Those between the content providers and the Internet backbone. The content providers decide who delivers this link. They therefore have the market power to control the terms on which this happens. 

2) Those that link the internet backbone together (e.g. the links in and out of telehouse in the UK). I'm not sure who decides on theses links, but  most of them are big data pipes bought from specialist long distance comms companies. Again there is a lot of diversity and competition.

3) Those that link the individual consumers to the backbone. As I said, in the UK there is affair amount of competition for this business and that to a degree controls the pricing and terms. In the US  there is far less opportunity for users to shop around.

The Sky piece that @rongtw linked to is fairly balanced and I think fair. The other piece is incredibly US centric (as was the original BBC item that you linked to) and, as is the whole debate in the US , focused entirely on the US companies that provide US consumers with 3)

We get (most) of our US sourced content over 1 & 2 and then our local version of 3 (Openreach + local ISP's), and that is why I am far less concerned for the UK. 

Net neutrality for 3) does have it's downside. Video traffic is growing dramatically. I can't lay hands on the figures, but YouTube and Netflix video's constitute a significant proportion of the total traffic. That costs ISP's money in that they need to continually upgrade backhaul bandwidth to cope with it. I never use Netflix and rarely YouTube, but because of net neutrality rules, the ISP's can't charge those who do any extra (or ask Netflix and Google to pay - one of the reasons why both are such strong supporters of net neutrality) - so I end up paying my ISP for infrastructure capacity I will never use. 

There is also a debate in Europe about whether the concept that certain services are excluded from data caps  - more common on mobile contracts (BT TV on EE for example?) - breaks the net neutrality rules. If it is decided that it does, then mobile companies will not be able to  differentially charge for data traffic, and all your content will become chargeable. 

 

 

 

 

DaveyH
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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

As expected Verizon shill Ajit Pai and his two republican flunkies have voted to repeal Title II.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/AMP/2017/12/14/fcc_net_neutrality_vote/

 

I imagine/hope the EFF and other groups are preparing to sue the FCC/US Government as we speak.

DaveyH
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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

Steve
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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

Hopefully every American state will back the above.

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DaveyH
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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

Their should be calls for Pai's head too...

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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

Trouble is that what happens in the USA tends to come here too so if Verizon etc go down the route of premium service bandwidth, BT and the like over here will naturally follow suit.

I imagine at the point where people start refusing to pay to access facebook some of the bigger internet giants will start to sue the telecoms providers for loss of business etc. Then they'll strike a deal where the big internet giants subsidise the telecoms companies and then we're going down an even worse road to hell.

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rongtw
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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

Oh dear Embarrassed they voted to scrap net neutrality rules

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/14/net-neutrality-fcc-rules-open-internet

More than 20 internet pioneers and leaders including the “father of the internet”, the inventor of the world wide web, Tim Berners-Lee; and the Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak have urged the FCC to cancel its vote to repeal net neutrality, describing the plan as “based on a flawed and factually inaccurate” understanding of how the internet works.

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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

I thought the issue was that once you get rid of the rules then the ISPs can charge the content providers to get a "premium" service (or rather a non "degraded" service). Also content providers can pay ISPs to give them priority over the infrastructure.

 

So if @Mook and I both ran rival video services then PN could come to us both and say "Nice Video service you have here, pity if if it got 'broken'" and ask us to pay money so we don't get pushed down the priority. So if I can pay and Mooks can't then PN's customers find his service is slower and less reliable. Or Netflix could come along and say "We'll give you $xxx" to give our streaming service priority over other services.

In this second case Mooks and I would find our businesses going down the tubes because Netflix have paid for priority.

 

But of course there's nothing to stop an ISP saying "If you want to use service X then it costs more" - so maybe Xbox gamers might find they have to pay an extra fiver a month to get a priority service.

 

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Re: The FCC vote today on Net Neutrality the outcome of which will affect us all.

That's exactly it @SteveA. ComCast has already done this to Netflix in America back in 2014 IIRC. They throttled their service and when the complaints came in they said to Netflix empty your wallet and we’ll ‘fix’ it and Netflix paid up too!