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So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

Community Veteran
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Registered: 01-08-2007

So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

I really don't get it. D/Cameron is on TV saying there might be military action in Libya, a possible no fly zone etc.
What on earth is this man taking cos I'll have some!
Last I heard we had no RAF left as he'd destroyed it, our carriers were being scrapped, we're having to share other ships with France and we can't even get rescue planes out there on time properly. On top of this everything is being cut left, right and centre, our local authorities are cutting down on everything, police forces are starting to loose plods, our roads aren't being repaired and our national debts interest is still spiraling out of control despite the cuts.
So.. I must surely be missing something because we're in Iraq and Afghanistan where we can clearly afford to spend £Billions.. Could someone tell me where we're miraculously getting funds for a war with Libya from along with the hardware?
Oh wait.. THATs why the fuel is going up again  Roll eyes
I need a new signature... i'm bored of the old one!
15 REPLIES
matt_2k34
Grafter
Posts: 1,300
Registered: 09-07-2007

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

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Last I heard we had no RAF left as he'd destroyed it, our carriers were being scrapped, we're having to share other ships with France and we can't even get rescue planes out there on time properly. On top of this everything is being cut left, right and centre, our local authorities are cutting down on everything, police forces are starting to loose plods, our roads aren't being repaired and our national debts interest is still spiraling out of control despite the cuts.

You really shouldnt believe everything you read  Shocked
Cuts yes, as "OMFG WEVE GOT NO ARMY/RAF/NAVY" as you make out, definitely not.
You need to balance stability with products we get from Libya (Oil?)
The fact that Gadaffi wont stand down, and believes "All my people love me", shows how disillusioned the guy is.
May i recommend you check out "Russia Today" - its a much more... balanced view of how things are happening in the middle east, rather than the " :O :O :O ! ! ! :O :O :O ! ! ! " styled scare tactics Newscorp & friends employ.
Problem is, you look at places like Eygpt, and how they've changed things by outsting their previous regime, regime change is always dramatically difficult, particularly when moving from a Dictatorship our Coup, to Diplomacy. the USA will have its fingers deep in each pie to ensure "the right guy" gets into power, of course.
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What on earth is this man taking cos I'll have some!

I believe its protecting the rights of your fellow man? - Hundreds of people slain for protesting for what they believe in, a right to diplomacy and that of a better life.
Many middle eastern countries with dictatorships are very wealthy, but the money does not filter down to the people, and as such many people live in, or near to poverty. People believe they are having things poor here, well, theres no one shooting at you for saying D/Cameron is "on something" - and that wont change.
We're in Iraq and Afghanistan to feed the US dependance on oil, (and to remove a former 'enemy' of Bush snr.) of course we're there... Tony B.Liar made sure of that.
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Could someone tell me where we're miraculously getting funds for a war with Libya from along with the hardware

May i suggest you read...  (although it isn't particularly pleasant reading!) Where the UK govt. gets its money from
as in the last 10-15 years, to "Keep people in jobs" and to "protect the NHS from Tory cuts" the Labour Govt. pumped billions of cash, the country did not have into public sector agencies. Now that things arent so great because...
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interest on the national debt will cost over £42 billion this year.

Thats £42bn A YEAR! a YEAR. PER, YEAR ... (yes, thats a lot of frickin' money! that could of been spent on:
a) keeping police and fire depts. running, to ensure public safety
b) keeping thousands of public sector workers in a job..
c.... the list is endless, £42bn!
Another problem is, for the last ~20 years, the government hasnt BOTHERED to do anything about its bloated, inefficient, poorly managed departments, and as such huge efficiencies can now be performed (and save abit of cash at the expense of a some staff, due to automation and streamlining of processes etc.) - however if this was done long ago, we'd have already saved a fair few million..  Embarrassed

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Oh wait.. THATs why the fuel is going up again 

IDK mate, Personally if your drilling for oil, and you've got a war going on, (and your quite likely to be targetted to pull in countries of nationalities of the workers....) I'd want paying more, Production would probably drop (and of course, Demand wont)....
So yeah... The worlds gonna end and its all the tories fault... well.. not Quite O_o
Things are gonna be shit for a while - unfortunately thats how the cookie crumbles sometimes.
Also, a note on Banks, im getting sick of people moaning about how much HSBC pay their executives... as a HSBC user, im quite happy for them to pay their "top 5" an average of £7m.
a) my money is safe
b) they've always been great, both on customer service and the products they offer
c) THEY TOOK NO STATE FUNDING (The government has no right to tell it what to do with ITS money, if it OWED the taxpayer, than this would be a different story!!)
People should go bother RBS / Northern Rock
(However, people should realise that the government owning a % of a bank, is a very worthwhile thing - as each year they pay a dividend on their performance. Its in the governments interest for these banks to do well, and to make lots of money (Aswell as earning tax on their very high earnings, and tax on all the salaries its paying, as well as their bonuses - it will earn money from the dividend from the shares themselves (or in some cases, earn the government more shares, thus getting a higher % of control of the bank)

Regards

Apologies for the long rant Smiley
aaaaand another reason to hate labour.
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,101
Registered: 10-09-2010

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

Historically speaking the National Debt levels are not that high at all.
And as for that photo of Gordon Brown with Gadafi, sorry, thats just balls, that sort of stuff happens all the time http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-love/the-wellconnected-dictato_b_67423.html http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/political-pictures-elizabeth-mugabe-smiling-diploma... http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/25/article-1029456-002780A500000258-754_468x526.jpg
Perhaps we should all hate the queen too since she's even given medals to murdering dictators?
Your post raised many interesting points and could have been an opening for some mature debate, but you debased yourself by taking cheap shots.
matt_2k34
Grafter
Posts: 1,300
Registered: 09-07-2007

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

Indeed,
But why do we deal with these people on their terms, then when we've finished trading, and they've finished taking the piss - do we then attempt to impose rules and regulations?? (china?)
These leaders should not be dealt with directly imho - this is what an embassy is for.
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Perhaps we should all hate the queen too since she's even given medals to murdering dictators?

Mugabe. Depends, things and people change, relations with Gaddafi has always been pretty questionable See, and Mugabe has been 'dishonoured' by the removal of his knighthood, degrees etc.
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Historically speaking the National Debt levels are not that high at all.

Indeed...
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We borrowed heavily to beat the Nazis in World War Two and by 1946 the debt had grown to £24.7bn, or 250% of GDP. The debt then declined rapidly in GDP terms, but the period of high inflation in the 1970s and 80s ensured net debt continued to rise, from £33.1bn in 1970 to £197.4bn in 1988.

But we're not exactly fighting a war on our doorstep this time... Although the americans *are* probably still funding the other side  Roll eyes
However i can live with..
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Your post raised many interesting points

Thanks for fully reading it ;-)
Community Veteran
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Registered: 02-02-2008

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

One of the reasons for the "friendly" acts that took place in relation to Libya was to try to "bring them in from the cold".
One interpretation of that is that we've actually succeeded, because their population has now been given enough freedom and awareness of the rest of the world to start to try to change things.
OK, the process isn't finished, but it's certainly started and looks like it should get somewhere soon.
If we'd left them alone they would probably have stayed a repressed state with no knowledge of what "could be" so no change would take place.....
Smiley
Dabbler
Posts: 16
Registered: 21-02-2011

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

Smiley ...

>
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,101
Registered: 10-09-2010

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

Quote from: Matt_2k34
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Historically speaking the National Debt levels are not that high at all.

Indeed...
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We borrowed heavily to beat the Nazis in World War Two and by 1946 the debt had grown to £24.7bn, or 250% of GDP. The debt then declined rapidly in GDP terms, but the period of high inflation in the 1970s and 80s ensured net debt continued to rise, from £33.1bn in 1970 to £197.4bn in 1988.

But we're not exactly fighting a war on our doorstep this time... Although the americans *are* probably still funding the other side  Roll eyes
I don't know what your quoting, but your answer shows you either didn't look at the graph I provided or decided to ignore it, war or no war, debt levels are in a historical context really quite low.
matt_2k34
Grafter
Posts: 1,300
Registered: 09-07-2007

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

The graph is fairly meaningless, as it is referenced against GDP. GDP is a figure which changes constantly, you need to measure it in terms of £bn.
Looking at it in terms of £bn (and how much interest we are paying) - we're at pretty much the worst state now. You cant justify that, by saying its a smaller percentile of GDP compared to the 50s.
Our GDP is much higher, therefore our debt is worth more.
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,101
Registered: 10-09-2010

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

Garbage, utter and total garbage.
GDP is widely used and recognised measure of a countrys economy and gives a good guide to what a country can cope with in terms of debt.
The actual amount of interest paid is utterly immaterial in this context, as a country with a GDP of £1m paying interest of £1bn would be in deep deep trouble, yet a country with a GDP of £100bn paying interest of £1bn would be in rude health.
% of GDP is one of the only accepted measures.  Actual interest paid is meaningless as it has no context, GDP is what gives context.
matt_2k34
Grafter
Posts: 1,300
Registered: 09-07-2007

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

Garbage?
Thanks for your OPINION, the above was just mine  Roll eyes
You cannot have one without the other tbh, GDP is fine, but you cant just keep moving the goal posts and saying "Oh debt is X% GDP", yeah great, but in the 40s and 50s our GDP would have been lower (or remained almost constant), thus rendering our debt % of GDP to be much higher (because war costs money, and thats all we were doing was lining the pockets of the rich who controlled the defence contracts etc.)
You cant say that the amount of interest paid is immaterial, because the amount of debt interest being paid has gone up significantly in the last 10-20 years, it is getting MORE EXPENSIVE to "borrow" money to throw at spending.
This model does not work.
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Actual interest paid is meaningless as it has no context, GDP is what gives context.

It may give context, but when the amount of interest (and debt) is increasing significantly, you have to question why - and is this sustainable? (erm, no)
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,101
Registered: 10-09-2010

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

Your being foolish, the accepted way to measure whether interest payments (and debt) for a country are sustainable is see what % of GDP they represent.  A straight £ figure is utterly meaningless, its a number, and as you concede GDP gives teh number context, a number without context is meaningless.
Here one
14,754
And another one
62,976,345
See, meaningless.
Community Veteran
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Registered: 30-08-2007

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

Quote from: fourfourdevon
Perhaps we should all hate the queen too since she's even given medals to murdering dictators?

The Queen bless her, does as she's told in these matters.
Experience; is something you gain, just after you needed it most.

When faced with two choices, simply toss a coin. It works not because it settles the question for you. But because in that brief moment while the coin is in the air. You suddenly know what you are hoping for.
Ellis
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Registered: 04-02-2011

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

My attitude is:- There are groups of professional liars, politicians, journalists, professional photographers (in these days of digital processing) and confidence tricksters. Some are worse than others.
Community Veteran
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Registered: 02-08-2007

Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

Well this post does at least prove one thing, that people with access to the same information can reach completely different conclusions.
nadger
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Re: So.. we can't afford anything, we're skint but we can afford a war with Libya???

What I found interesting was the debt/gdp percentage at the time of Waterloo