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Sea Gypsies

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Sea Gypsies

There is much talk about Italy, refusing to allow the ships which rescued refugees in the Med, to land them in Italian ports.

Whilst I can understand the ship`s rescue mission, I also understand the Italian position of not allowing them to land them.

On the point of the ship.... Yes, they should , and do, rescue, provide a safer alternative to the refugees mode of transport  which is the duty of all at sea to other seafarers.

On the point of Italy... Why should they be the country that takes in these refugees? without any support from the originating country, or the E.U.

A more proper way to deal with this, would be for the ship`s captains, to take the refugees back to a port/country,  of origin, in exactly the same way as "non legals" are repatriated by the Border Agencies for violation of visa requirements. Non Legal entries are sent back to their country.  . so should these refugees.

 

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Re: Sea Gypsies

@shutter But what are refugees, and why are those boat people refugees? If you or I were in their position, what would our world become should we be returned to the state from which we were attempting escape? Of course if they're really economic migrants, then they have no case.

The situation is difficult with matters like religious fundamentalism on one side, and on the other ?christian? conscience and pity pitted against populism aka nationalism on way to authoritarian regimes.

As to Italy, it is difficult to blame them entirely. Europe and the UK need to share in giving asylum to those unfortunates, as they should  a time ago.

No one has to agree with my opinion, but in the time I have left a miracle would be nice.
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Re: Sea Gypsies

actually the situation is a lot simpler than the criminal scum would have you believe, 

there are embassies all over the African continent where folks can go and claim asylum, literally 100% of the people who enter the waters to make the crossing are economic migrants

 

the reason why a person has chosen to take the route they have is neither here nor there, the facts of the matter are simple, they have travelled across multiple "safe" countries and transitioned from legitimate travellers seeking aid into illegitimate scroungers 

 

as such every single person who aided their transit is also performing part of a criminal conspiracy to defraud, since such criminal activity is taking place in international waters its called piracy, piracy still has the death penalty, ergo its long past time everyone put on their big girl/boy pants and enacted international law (shoot until they are all deceased) the quicker its done (and I include all these so called rescue boats, boats where folks are happy to admit to driving up to foreign ports and loading up with their illegal cargo before attempting to perform further criminal conspiracies) 

 

I dont care what reason anyone has for performing criminal conduct I'm just sick and tired of witnessing time and again thousands of people failing to do their sworn duty in upholding the law....

which is odd because I seem to recall the Italian police being only to happy to shoot rather than capture pirates only a few years ago....

 

just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you
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Re: Sea Gypsies

@Luzern  as the title says.... these boat people, are "Sea Gypsies" and will be only too glad to land ANYWHERE that will give them "something for nothing"...

They are not criminals, however they are economic scroungers, by virtue of the fact that they MUST have saved jup huge sums of money to pay to the criminals who organised their "boat trip".. which, by it`s very nature shows that they must have had "some" kind of income, in their own country, to be able to afford the price of the "boat ticket" to "freedom"? 

Technically, they are not "refugees" in the full sense of the word, as many of them have not come from a "country at war".... they may have a low level of life balance compared to the "normal" world, but that does not give them a right to be housed and fed and supported by any other country where they get to land..

As nanotm has said, many of them have probably "passed through" safe countries, and could easily have stopped their journey there, and continued their life, with all the money they were going to give to the criminal boat operators.  The reason they want to get out of their own country is because there is no "social security" for anyone with low/nil incomes.... which kinda contradicts their situation, because if they were in such "low/nil income" situation, they would not have been able to afford the "boat ticket"  .

Even if you use the "emotinal" terms of "christian values", and pity towards them, the fact remains, that they should be returned to the country of origin, or "last port of call"... as they do at air and seaports for illegal immigrants... because that is exactly what these people are... illegal    and   immigrants..

If they are allowed to enter a country "illegally"  because they were saved from the sea, then that should apply to anyone else, no matter what country of origin, or what country of destination... in other words...  they would then become "legal"  immigrants... bringing "double standards" to those who apply for tourist visa`s to get into another country and live and work there, breaking the terms of the tourist visa..

  Our Border Force agency need not exist... and passports, and immigration laws would be no longer enforcable...

 

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Re: Sea Gypsies

@shutter It was unfortunate that the pejorative "sea gypsies" was mixed with "refugees" in the  OP. As to " emotional term christian values" my usage had the ?s around christian to signal my wish to avoid any suggestion of the emotional or religious.

That these people are the majority, who attempt the crossing, then I have little respect for them, because they ruin the chances for the true refugees of resettlement. However, rather than closing, locking, bolting and barring countries' doors to all possible unfortunates, can or is there will for some method of sifting be found to find those deserving help.

No one has to agree with my opinion, but in the time I have left a miracle would be nice.
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Re: Sea Gypsies

you know with respect to the Christian values, one is to stand strong in the face of adversity and too do the right thing not the easy thing, that includes things like enforcing laws despite the appeals to emotion...

 


@Luzern wrote:

 

 rather than closing, locking, bolting and barring countries' doors to all possible unfortunates, can or is there will for some method of sifting be found to find those deserving help.


yes the process your referring too is called refugee camps (the UK for instance setup and runs a dozen of them in various places) another option is applications presented to embassies (high commissions/consulates /etc) none of which involve handing over cash to people traffickers or terrorist groups in order for them to commit acts of piracy and send you on your way to a life of handouts...

 

the majority of folks who travel via this method do so either by selling their family members to the organ or sex trade or through commit crimes to generate the funds directly (such as murder and theft), none of them are desirable within western society none of them are genuine refugees of any sort and all of them should have been put down like the criminal scum they are (stray animals are put down when they cause a nuisance, no matter how cute they look, it should be no different with people, and no I dont care what the skin colour is or where there from, if there a causing problems on the street ventilate them its cheaper than feeding them and the worlds overpopulated anyway)

it might be harsh sounding but thats reality, be nice until its time not to be, you have a nice society in your country you have to work to keep it that way and weed out the rotten bits, you shouldn't be trying to conduct mass hari kari becasue your feeling sorry for a couple of people who got a bad lot, just send them positive thoughts and prayers that their next life will treat them better, you dont dispose of everythign that makes your life better in some misguided attempt to appease your conscience...... 

just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you
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Re: Sea Gypsies

The use of the term "refugees" by me, was intentional, as this is the "generic" term used by the press, (and politicians) for this group of people.

  In the case of the Med,... the term "Sea Gypsies" is more appropriate, because they "set sail" on the high sea, with no knowledge of the sea, weather conditions, navigation, etc, etc... they do not even have a "port of destination"... they set out, in the hope that,.....

    a) they will reach "some country" somewhere really soon, or.....

    b) they are "rescued" by any passing ship and given assylum in whatever country that ship can land them in ( due to overcrowding on the ship ).

These "travellers" are indeed Sea Gypsies.... they are no different from those who hide in the back of lorries entering England, ( or any other country) when going about their lawful business,.... When discovered/caught. they are treated humanely, given health checks, food and drink etc.. which is only right.... however, they are classed as "illegal immigrants" immediately, until they can prove otherwise.   They have been told to dispose of any identification papers etc, or have had their papers/passport (if they had one) taken away from them, so that their original country of origin, or country of registration is difficult to ascertain,... This proves very difficult in the "return" process, and the "traffickers" know this system well.  Dilligent questioning of several of a group, and collating all the information, should enable the authorities to ascertain their nationality, and thus return them in accordance with the rules of immigration.

 

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Re: Sea Gypsies

I agree with treating them humanly when there caught and according them civility and food/clothing/medical aid etc but I also figure that a few examples should be made, anyone thats difficult should get executed, a group or two found without paperwork should get executed (very publicly) primarily to act as a deterrent to future attempts at subverting laws but also to protect future trafficked individuals from enduring such crass stupidity

 

taking the hard-line doesn't mean zero empathy it means looking at the big picture and more than just the immediate problem, it does of course remove the immediate problem and in the longer term alleviate problems, which means that whilst accepting you cant change the past you can shape the future so use what is available and do your best to ensure its better for more people.

 

its not as if its impossible for those seeking refuge asylum or even economic migration to come to the west legally, hell its cheaper and far less hazardous for them to arrive through the correct means than it is for them to swamp the boarders, its also easier for the receivers to ensure that those seeking to escape justice dont arrive and hoover up our resources in their attempts, 

 

relatively speaking we have a nice life in our country, we have some nice social safety nets, free healthcare and no reason for any legal citizen to go hungry day to day, but in order to ensure this remains the case we must not allow in every scrounger who wants to profit from our generousity to each other within our nation...

 

if these people wish to live in a similar society then they should change their own country or apply to enter legally in smaller numbers... 

 

if I wanted to live a life of perpetual fear self loathing recrimination and hatred whilst starving I would have moved to a different country, I dont so I didnt.... 

 

 

 

 

 

just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you
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Re: Sea Gypsies

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Re: Sea Gypsies

Whilst it is impossible to know the true figure I think it reasonable to say there are millions of refugees across the world.

Is one refugee more important that another refugee ? Perhaps the answer is yes, women and children are at a higher level of risk and exploitation than men.

So should they not be given priority ? Seems to me the reverse is true.

Equally if you agree there are millions of refugees how can any group of european countries, some of which have major financial problems take in thousands of more people without at least agreeing on a fixed figure it simply makes no sense.

Does Russia, China, and Japan take in refugees in the number the EU takes.?

For many reasonable people this is a emotional issue, there is a feeling of guilt about doing nothing but in life there are many situations where we feel we should do something but in reality are able to do nothing.

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Re: Sea Gypsies

@gleneagles

well sure, but we can give them aid and shelter closer to home, we can give them on site training and provide them with security whilst were at it, the problem is that as we saw with the Rwanda problem in the 90's the minute we pull out becasue the threat has been diminished they go home and end up massacred, or as we saw with the troubles in Ethiopia in the 80's and 90's, the folks that initially fled the civil war went home only to suffer famine when the land was still unable to produce food and the irrigation systems and been destroyed.... the answer was to send them food, it didnt help them in the long run though

 

what was required in both cases was knowledge and no small amount of technological and societal uplift, rather than agree how to do it half hte world cried racism to the proposal and so the "charity groups" leading those cries ensured they retained a job they understood how to do for future years...….

 

the question shouldn't be how do you determine an individuals worth, its how do they value themselves, how can they perform such a judgement without a frame of reference, how can they have that frame without education....

 

as to the fact the EU decided to change the way it treats refugees in order to ensure the majority dont survive is just plain evil, they dont provide aid in place, they dont operate sanctuary's giving out shelter and succour, no they advertise the land of milk and honey open to those able to survive the crossing and eligible.... but realistically most of hte women and children didnt make the journey and plenty of the men died as well, and at the end of the day the only reason they didnt be honest about their intentions to kill thousands every week using their own desperation stupidity and mother nature as the instrument of death where an average of 1 in 6 survives its like the holocaust but on a bigger scale and once again Germany is running the show.... 

 

 

 

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Re: Sea Gypsies


@nanotm wrote:

I agree with treating them humanly when there caught and according them civility and food/clothing/medical aid etc but I also figure that a few examples should be made, anyone thats difficult should get executed, a group or two found without paperwork should get executed (very publicly) primarily to act as a deterrent to future attempts at subverting laws but also to protect future trafficked individuals from enduring such crass stupidity

 

taking the hard-line doesn't mean zero empathy it means looking at the big picture and more than just the immediate problem, it does of course remove the immediate problem and in the longer term alleviate problems, which means that whilst accepting you cant change the past you can shape the future so use what is available and do your best to ensure its better for more people.

 

its not as if its impossible for those seeking refuge asylum or even economic migration to come to the west legally, hell its cheaper and far less hazardous for them to arrive through the correct means than it is for them to swamp the boarders, its also easier for the receivers to ensure that those seeking to escape justice dont arrive and hoover up our resources in their attempts, 

 

relatively speaking we have a nice life in our country, we have some nice social safety nets, free healthcare and no reason for any legal citizen to go hungry day to day, but in order to ensure this remains the case we must not allow in every scrounger who wants to profit from our generousity to each other within our nation...

 

if these people wish to live in a similar society then they should change their own country or apply to enter legally in smaller numbers... 

 

if I wanted to live a life of perpetual fear self loathing recrimination and hatred whilst starving I would have moved to a different country, I dont so I didnt.... 

 

 

 

 

 


@nanotm To me the bit of your post highlighted is a repugnant suggestion, worthy of totalitarian states of both left and right, and publically reeks of Iran and its execution cranes. What a horrible post!

No one has to agree with my opinion, but in the time I have left a miracle would be nice.
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Re: Sea Gypsies


@nanotm wrote:

@gleneagles

well sure, but we can give them aid and shelter closer to home, we can give them on site training and provide them with security whilst were at it, the problem is that as we saw with the Rwanda problem in the 90's the minute we pull out becasue the threat has been diminished they go home and end up massacred, or as we saw with the troubles in Ethiopia in the 80's and 90's, the folks that initially fled the civil war went home only to suffer famine when the land was still unable to produce food and the irrigation systems and been destroyed.... the answer was to send them food, it didnt help them in the long run though

 

what was required in both cases was knowledge and no small amount of technological and societal uplift, rather than agree how to do it half hte world cried racism to the proposal and so the "charity groups" leading those cries ensured they retained a job they understood how to do for future years...….

 

the question shouldn't be how do you determine an individuals worth, its how do they value themselves, how can they perform such a judgement without a frame of reference, how can they have that frame without education....

 

as to the fact the EU decided to change the way it treats refugees in order to ensure the majority dont survive is just plain evil, they dont provide aid in place, they dont operate sanctuary's giving out shelter and succour, no they advertise the land of milk and honey open to those able to survive the crossing and eligible.... but realistically most of hte women and children didnt make the journey and plenty of the men died as well, and at the end of the day the only reason they didnt be honest about their intentions to kill thousands every week using their own desperation stupidity and mother nature as the instrument of death where an average of 1 in 6 survives its like the holocaust but on a bigger scale and once again Germany is running the show.... 

 

 

 


@nanotm ISTM that hatred of the EU is unworthily entering the thread, and worse still Germany's past is used to denigrate a much changed nation. What cynicism!AngryShocked

No one has to agree with my opinion, but in the time I have left a miracle would be nice.
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Re: Sea Gypsies

@Luzern

 

thats kind of the point, its a statement of intent that only needs doing a couple of times, brassing up a pontoon in the sea thats moved from international water into territorial waters and fails to turn around when challenged filmed and then broadcast internationally,

in the short term you will find its necessary maybe half a dozen times, in the long term you will find folks cease trying which means illegal trafficking disappears, 

 

its also far fewer deaths than happen currently, right now you have a very nasty group of people who look and sound caring and kind leading the EU, so I ask you then, why when you know that 1in 6 people survive crossing the med instead of deterring them from trying do you advertise that the land of milk and honey has 1 million places available for anyone eligible who manages to arrive and claim it? you literally had a report that there were 10 million people waiting to try and cross the med destination  the EU, less than half a million landed but they all entered the water  within weeks of angela merkle making that announcement, she literally enticed 9.5 million people to kill themselves, and she did it in under a month if hitler had managed those numbers he would have killed every single person opposing him across Europe and Russia by the start of 1944... she managed a death toll that makes the holocaust look like a kindergarten effort all whilst appearing to keep her hands clean …. very very evil indeed 

 

and yet somehow i'm the bad guy becasue I want to prevent them from being encouraged to try making such a dangerous crossing in the first place? becasue you dislike the short sharp shock approach that I would use ? yet my method would kill maybe 200 people in a month and save 100's of millions over future years... ever wondered why Germany tried to have the UK funded refugee camps closed down? 

 

 

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Re: Sea Gypsies


@Luzern wrote: 

@nanotm ISTM that hatred of the EU is unworthily entering the thread, and worse still Germany's past is used to denigrate a much changed nation. What cynicism!AngryShocked


that hatred of the EU and those who kowtow before the new fuhrer is based on knowledge of the past and not wishing to repeat it ad infinitum, i'm not someone who wishes death to millions based on their region of birth nor based on their skin colour, but based on their lack of humanity and their duplicity and underhanded evil, certainly I will denigrate them for their actions and their nature 

 

cynicism doesn't cause millions to die with the misguided hope that theres a chance at a better life, they have zero hope of achieving a better life than they had even of the unfortunate few that survive the ordeals the best they can hope for is a quick end to their misery 

just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you