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Protests & Strikes

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Protests & Strikes

I See a number of groups around the country have either gone on a day's strike or in the case of the Police and some other groups used their day off to protest about Pensions & cuts.
Is the government likely to back pedal on some of the proposals due to take place regarding cuts & pension changes or will they go ahead despite these protests. ?
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Re: Protests & Strikes

Don`t be daft....... this is a predominately Con- servative government...
They wear white shirts, and roll their sleeves up to show they are "one of us", in public, then go behind your back and stab you with increased taxes for the workers, grinding them down as much as possible, whilst smiling at them saying it is for their (the workers) own good, when really they mean it is for THEIR own good....
Community Veteran
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Re: Protests & Strikes

I think the police are on an amazing deal. They should try a really dangerous job like window cleaning.
I hope they don't get too tired out walking as they're not used to it.
Quote from: shutter
They where white shirts, and roll their sleeves up to show they are "one of us", in public.

Isn't that exactly what Tony Blair was the master of.
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Re: Protests & Strikes

Compared to the private sector public sector workers have a great deal.
The unions didn't give a stuff when Blair / Brown effectively ended private sector final salary schemes, yet act like the world has ended when their staff are told to pay a little bit more.
According to a pensions expert on 5live this afternoon a doctor can end up with a pension of 50k with contributions of 200k. For an annuity with the same pay out a year a private sector worker would need a pension pot of around 1.5 million.
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Re: Protests & Strikes

In Lord Hutton's report on pensions he said there was no evidence to suggest pay in the public sector was any less than in the private sector. It is a fallacy to attempt to justify the level of pensions. 
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Re: Protests & Strikes

The average salary in the public sector is higher than the private sector...
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thejudge
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Re: Protests & Strikes

Right, where to start...?
"Compared to the private sector public sector workers have a great deal."
When their employers were busy shafting them by taking 'contributions holidays' and closing final-salary schemes, people in the private sector didn't seem to want to fight, or weren't able to because they'd swallowed all the Thatcherite guff about unions being unnecessary and 'obstructive'. Union membership in the private sector duly fell (partly also because private-sector employers 'encouraged' their workers not to join unions). Hence:
"The unions didn't give a stuff when Blair / Brown effectively ended private sector final salary schemes..."
They did, actually, but as I said above, union membership in the private sector plummeted from the early 90s onwards, so there was little leverage for unions in any other than some of the larger 'traditional' employers.
Besides which, I can't see how Blair and Brown 'ended' those schemes except possibly by implementing policies being yelled for by large private-sector companies who wanted to do precisely that.
"According to a pensions expert on 5live this afternoon a doctor can end up with a pension of 50k with contributions of 200k."
'A doctor' is not indicative of the public sector as a whole. A very large majority of the workers in the public sector are on below median salaries (in addition to there being a substantial proportion who are part-time). A few (a very few) at the very top seem to be coining it, but extrapolating from them to everyone in the public sector is, at best, lazy; at worst, dishonest or ignorant. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of it about.
"In Lord Hutton's report on pensions he said there was no evidence to suggest pay in the public sector was any less than in the private sector. It is a fallacy to attempt to justify the level of pensions."
and,
"The average salary in the public sector is higher than the private sector..."
A small part of this is due to higher-paid skill-levels in the public sector (we've already mentioned doctors; let's hear about nurses, lab technicians, and those with high-level expertise in other necessary areas). A larger part, however, is due to the fact that a large proportion of so-called 'ancillary' or 'back-room' jobs have been privatised/outsourced so that those jobs - often previously the lower-paid jobs - are no longer counted as being public sector, since salaries are paid by the outsourcer.
Oh, and if you're going to quote Hutton, at least acknowledge that he also clearly stated that public-sector pensions are affordable, and were set to become an even smaller percentage of GDP over the next twenty years.
More generally, the whining coming from some (but only some - the louder ones) in the private sector seems to be based on the notion of, "My pension/pay/conditions suck, so why shouldn't everyone else's?!". It's understandable, but unhelpful to everyone except those who have a vested interest in 'divide and rule'. We in the public sector have seen all too clearly what has happened to most of the private sector and, quite rightly, want to stop it from happening to us as well. And if those in the private sector want to do something constructive for all of us, then they can organise and demand better treatment for themselves. I don't think that they'll find the unions reluctant to help.
It will now come as no surprise to you that I spent 90 minutes on the picket line outside my place of employment this morning before going on to a town-centre rally later.
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Re: Protests & Strikes

Quote from: thejudge
"The unions didn't give a stuff when Blair / Brown effectively ended private sector final salary schemes..."
They did, actually, but as I said above, union membership in the private sector plummeted from the early 90s onwards, so there was little leverage for unions in any other than some of the larger 'traditional' employers.
Besides which, I can't see how Blair and Brown 'ended' those schemes except possibly by implementing policies being yelled for by large private-sector companies who wanted to do precisely that.

They ended them by taxing the income on dividends of share schemes which pretty much made them unaffordable, nice windfall for the government and the unions saw it as nicely sticking it to the 'fat cats'.
Of course these changes didn't effect public sector workers. The unions kick up enough stink about pretty much anything and could have made as much noise then.
Quote from: thejudge
'A doctor' is not indicative of the public sector as a whole. A very large majority of the workers in the public sector are on below median salaries (in addition to there being a substantial proportion who are part-time). A few (a very few) at the very top seem to be coining it, but extrapolating from them to everyone in the public sector is, at best, lazy; at worst, dishonest or ignorant. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of it about.

You're right, in fact the further down the payscale you get the pension is still close to the 2/3 final salary even on the career average. They also quoted for a nurse and teacher, again both of which pension contributions were far less than an equivalent private sector worker.
It shouldn't be a race to the bottom, but I can't see how asking for a bit more contribution to a great pension in these times is such a heinous crime.
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Re: Protests & Strikes

Quote
... in fact the further down the payscale you get the pension is still close to the 2/3 final salary even on the career average. They also quoted for a nurse and teacher, again both of which pension contributions were far less than an equivalent private sector worker.

Where did that figure come from?
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Re: Protests & Strikes

I made it up Cheesy
It was the pensions guy on 5live, I was driving at the time so couldn't write it all down Smiley the dr example was easy to remember, which is why I quoted that.
It'll be on iPlayer I suspect, 5live drive between 17.30 and 18.00
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Re: Protests & Strikes

The underlying problem with funding Public service pensions is that none of the "Employers" or "Employees" contributions were invested in a pension fund. Politicians relied on the principle that current government income would fund the people who've retired before. The Government now wants to break that contract. It's not the pensioners causing the problem, it is a long sequence of lying politicians who fudged the issue of actually saving for its employees pensions.
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peter10
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Re: Protests & Strikes

Quote from: dvorak

You're right, in fact the further down the payscale you get the pension is still close to the 2/3 final salary even on the career average. They also quoted for a nurse and teacher, again both of which pension contributions were far less than an equivalent private sector worker

As a retired teacher my pension is 1/80 of my final salary for every year worked. To obtain 2/3 salary I would have had to work 53  years or until I was 75 assuming that I had gone straight into teaching after a 3 year degree and 1 year PGCE.
Friends of mine who obtained the same degree  and who went into industry were paid a higher salary than I was and have a better pension than I have being based on at least 1/60 of their final salary.
jmd
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Re: Protests & Strikes

It really bugs me when everyone assumes that civil service and local government etc pensions are wonderful, OK if you are at a higher grade it may not be so bad but those of us who werre on the lower clerical grades it is not so wonderful.  I worked 29 yrs in civil service and I manage on my pension but it does not mean I am well off - as I said I just "manage".  I was on a final pension scheme too but those who retire in next few years are not going to be on that and will be worse off comparatively.  Also jobs in the public sector are not as safe as they were years ago or perceived to be.
I fully support the action that they are taking.  And yes I was a Union member when I was working.
alanb
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Re: Protests & Strikes

Quote from: Salmo
Friends of mine who obtained the same degree  and who went into industry were paid a higher salary than I was and have a better pension than I have being based on at least 1/60 of their final salary.

The majority of industrial pensions are rather pedestrian 1/80 schemes. (Or perhaps I should write they were before they went the way of the Dodo.) Some enlightened employers offered 1/60 schemes, but very often only to management staff. There were also a few offering 1/40 schemes (very rarely) for the most senior people.
I am a case in point, I've worked for a major science and technology company since the 1980s, it has been a very good company to work for in that they treat people very well, they pay all staff well, mainly in the upper quartile, but their pension offer to all staff was a 1/80 scheme. Any employee who wants or needs a better pension had to make additional voluntary contributions. (In my case, I've managed to increase my pension to something equivalent to a 1/55 scheme by making maximum AVC payments for 20 years. I was lucky to be able to afford to do that too.)
****
While we are on the subject of pension values, the public sector union leaders were back on the radio yesterday, claiming that the average public sector pension is only £4,000 after a life-time of service. What a load of old washing, they must think we were all born yesterday. If that were true, it would mean that they average retirement salary after completing (say) 40 years service would be £8,000 (assuming a 1/80 pension scheme). There is no way that can be correct for a full-time public sector employee after a life-time of service.
itsme
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Re: Protests & Strikes

Quote from: Salmo
As a retired teacher my pension is 1/80 of my final salary for every year worked. To obtain 2/3 salary I would have had to work 53  years or until I was 75 assuming that I had gone straight into teaching after a 3 year degree and 1 year PGCE.
Friends of mine who obtained the same degree  and who went into industry were paid a higher salary than I was and have a better pension than I have being based on at least 1/60 of their final salary.

You conveniently omitted the fact that on a 1/80 you take a lump sum of 3 times the annual pension. If on a 1/60 a lump sum is not available.