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Judges BLOCK BREXIT

Luzern
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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT

Now we have a call, referenced in Guardian, for army intervention, should Brexit be thwarted! OK it's from that esteemed source of public opinion, FacebookFunny, but in all seriousness that any sane person, who supposedly i thinks democracy is so served, is frightening.

I hope, we are not seeing some of the true face of the Brexit proponents.

No one has to agree with my opinion, but in the time I have left a miracle would be nice.
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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT

But there are a few things we can say for certain, the first is that a number of EU countries are a lot worse off for being in the EU, some have high levels of unemployment and their governments are broke with no chance of paying the debt off.

The second thing we can say for certain is that services in this country are getting worse, NHS, lack of housing, road repairs etc..... how then does it make sense to allow anyone from the EU plus those who the EU insist we let in as refugees.

Just to be clear on that last point of course we should take in refugees and we do so but the decision on numbers including those from EU countries should be decided by the government and not Brussels.

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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT

Guardian, Facebook.?

Hard to know which one comes out with the most [-Censored-].

Grin

wisty
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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT

Daily Mail must be up there with the leaders!!

wisty
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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT


gleneagles wrote:

But there are a few things we can say for certain, the first is that a number of EU countries are a lot worse off for being in the EU, some have high levels of unemployment and their governments are broke with no chance of paying the debt off.


Sorry - where is the evidence that such countries would be better off out of the EU. Many of those countries could (I don't know, I have no evidence) potentially be far worse off without the support of the richer EU nations. You are expressing an opinion not stating a certainty


The second thing we can say for certain is that services in this country are getting worse, NHS, lack of housing, road repairs etc..... how then does it make sense to allow anyone from the EU plus those who the EU insist we let in as refugees.


Equally I would argue that without a lot of those EU migrants those services you describe would be in a far worse state. My M-in-L is in a care home ( she/my wife's inheritance pays the bill) . A significant proportion of the staff are EU migrants who do a great job, pay taxes and deliver the services. With unemployment below 0.4% in this area , who would do the job if we did not have the EU migrants. I could argue with equal certainty (and more evidence) that the main reason for the deterioration in the services you describe is the dogmatic insistence of the Tory party on low taxation for the rich and the consequential damage done to services by the cuts imposed by the last Tory management team (Cameron & Osborne). The housing issue is in my view largely the consequence of Maggie's decision to sell of social housing.


Just to be clear on that last point of course we should take in refugees and we do so but the decision on numbers including those from EU countries should be decided by the government and not Brussels.


 

Ah ha we are back to the primacy of our government again. The only argument then is whether the PM and her cabinet cronies are above parliament, or subject to its will. I would argue the latter. If TM and Co can't convince parliament that they have got a good deal for the country why should they be allowed to proceed - unless of course parliament is an irrelevance and we actually want either an elective dictatorship (Maggie's preferred option) or a plebiscite with the tyranny of the majority waiting round the corner.

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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT


wisty wrote:

 I would argue the latter. If TM and Co can't convince parliament that they have got a good deal for the country why should they be allowed to proceed

How is she expected to say that she has got a good deal given that the negotiations won't start until after Article 50 is triggered all she could do is say what she hopes to achieve which will tip off the opposition (the EU in this case) as to where she wants to finish up


 

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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT

And what's wrong with that? I would have thought that any negotiations of any kind should start with the ideals being aired by both parties. Otherwise they will be just gyrating round each other trying to outmaneuver the opposition with no progress being made. 

I had occasion to get involved with Union/Company negotiations some years ago. We always started with what both sides wanted and then worked towards a common agreed goal. By getting all the cards on the table at the beginning everyone knew what they were up against in an ideal world. 

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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT

@nozzer And in the commercial world negotiating is a way of life. We attempted to get the best deal from the opposite side, be it customer or supplier, but in doing that we kept as mutch of our negotiating strategy as secret as we could. 

 

Both sides knew to leave something in the deal for the other side so it should be a win-win situation at the end. When I was in exporting there were plenty of government bodies who were working alongside industry who understood what we were trying to achieve in our business, I hope that haven't all disappeared since.

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To be is to do - Kant
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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT


wisty wrote:

gleneagles wrote:

But there are a few things we can say for certain, the first is that a number of EU countries are a lot worse off for being in the EU, some have high levels of unemployment and their governments are broke with no chance of paying the debt off.


Sorry - where is the evidence that such countries would be better off out of the EU. Many of those countries could (I don't know, I have no evidence) potentially be far worse off without the support of the richer EU nations. You are expressing an opinion not stating a certainty


The second thing we can say for certain is that services in this country are getting worse, NHS, lack of housing, road repairs etc..... how then does it make sense to allow anyone from the EU plus those who the EU insist we let in as refugees.


Equally I would argue that without a lot of those EU migrants those services you describe would be in a far worse state. My M-in-L is in a care home ( she/my wife's inheritance pays the bill) . A significant proportion of the staff are EU migrants who do a great job, pay taxes and deliver the services. With unemployment below 0.4% in this area , who would do the job if we did not have the EU migrants. I could argue with equal certainty (and more evidence) that the main reason for the deterioration in the services you describe is the dogmatic insistence of the Tory party on low taxation for the rich and the consequential damage done to services by the cuts imposed by the last Tory management team (Cameron & Osborne). The housing issue is in my view largely the consequence of Maggie's decision to sell of social housing.


Just to be clear on that last point of course we should take in refugees and we do so but the decision on numbers including those from EU countries should be decided by the government and not Brussels.


 

Ah ha we are back to the primacy of our government again. The only argument then is whether the PM and her cabinet cronies are above parliament, or subject to its will. I would argue the latter. If TM and Co can't convince parliament that they have got a good deal for the country why should they be allowed to proceed - unless of course parliament is an irrelevance and we actually want either an elective dictatorship (Maggie's preferred option) or a plebiscite with the tyranny of the majority waiting round the corner.


Evidence that some countries would be better off out of the common market ? Are you honestly suggesting that some of these countries would be in a worse position than they are at present. They have no control over the value of the euro compared to the UK that kept the £ thus putting us a much better position.

The problem is that money was made available to some of these countries and they took it, now it's time to pay it back and they are unable to do so. Had they not been members of the EU then they would not have had access to the money.

 

As for staff working in care homes ask yourself why is it that people are out of work here yet we can find jobs for EU migrants, perhaps we are exployting most of these people, low wages and long hours. Would you leave your family and friends to work in a low paid job in another country?

As  for your final comment, what it comes down to is this, those who wanted us to remain will try every trick in the book to delay us leaving, they are not bothered about the negative image or damage they are doing to the country they just want their own way. Most such as Clegg, Blair,Brown and a host of others have been given the chance to show what they could do, they were total failures yet still think they know best.

Make no mistake Britexit will go ahead no matter what these luddites say and the sooner the better.

g

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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT


PeterLoftus wrote:

@nozzer And in the commercial world negotiating is a way of life. We attempted to get the best deal from the opposite side, be it customer or supplier, but in doing that we kept as mutch of our negotiating strategy as secret as we could. 

 

Both sides knew to leave something in the deal for the other side so it should be a win-win situation at the end. When I was in exporting there were plenty of government bodies who were working alongside industry who understood what we were trying to achieve in our business, I hope that haven't all disappeared since.


 

 

By strategy I assume you mean your own "plan of action" to deal with the opposition. I agree if that's what you mean. TM doesn't have to give any of that away (in the same way as you wouldn't let it out of the bag in a commercial negotiation), but she should at least make it known what she is wanting to achieve from either a hard or soft Brexit. As far as I can tell, that's what debates MPs may or may not have would be discussing, not the negotiating tactics.

wisty
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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT


gleneagles wrote:

 

Make no mistake Britexit will go ahead no matter what these luddites say and the sooner the better.

 


Agreed however what form of Brexit is still up in the air.

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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT

@nozzer

The problem with stating what you want to achieve in a public arena is not a good idea, for example if TM said she wanted to control who comes into the country it is highly likely several EU countries would not agree to that so you are then in a situation where you or they back down meaning someone is going to lose face.

Far better to sit in private with the other side and discuss ways forward rather than trying to score points in the press by claiming we beat them or other such nonsense as seen in press headlines which only gets everyones back up and blocks further progress.

As for keeping people informed, that's what Cameron did, telling us what a great deal he had got for the UK but in reality he had got nothing.

Who can say what TM will get but at least give her a chance.

wisty
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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT

If only it were that simple! This is politics not the commercial world which has simple profit goals.

The EU will be negotiating in public. With 27 countries on their side, their negotiating position will be complex and fairly transparent at least at the highest level.

 

TM's real problem is not the EU knowing her goals but the fact that her own party wildly disagree what they want from Brexit. If  she sets out her negotiation goals, one side or the other of her own supporters will knife her in the back.

 

E.g.Stephen Phillips resignation. A Brexiteer who wanted to stay in the single market

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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT

In that case she may be forced to call a general election and irrespective of what anyone may think about her most are agreed she would be returned with a big majority.

That would put those who oppose her in a very weak position.

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Re: Judges BLOCK BREXIT

Before TM could call an election I think she would have to repeal the Fixed Term Parliament Act. That may not be easy as a lot of MPs are thought to like the idea of 5 year terms.