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Fuel issues

Community Veteran
Posts: 7,263
Thanks: 69
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Registered: 30-08-2007

Re: Fuel issues

@ Phil_E, you (together with Maranello) are obviously enthusiastic, which is fine with me, you're probably not very interested in bowls which I am, and we do use cars (although we fill them up with players) to get around to matches. But just out of idle curiosity (and I promise I won't use it against you...others may however) do you know what the fuel consumption of say a race prepared F1 Ferrari is? It's not a trick, I don't know.
Experience; is something you gain, just after you needed it most.

When faced with two choices, simply toss a coin. It works not because it settles the question for you. But because in that brief moment while the coin is in the air. You suddenly know what you are hoping for.
Community Veteran
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Re: Fuel issues

Quote from: pierre_pierre
Maybe, but think of the amount of power to be stored, half tonne of car from 200 km/hr to 50km/hr very short time

It will be a small but very fast flywheel, maybe carbon fibre or similar.
Remember energy increases with the square of speed, so a 500kg (say) F1 car at 200mph = 1kg at about 4500mph. If it's 1 foot in diameter (just over 3' circumference) that's only 2200 rpm if my maths are right (and they will be). And the engines are limited to 19,000 rpm so that's diddly-squat for F1 technology.
Many a flywheel runs at around 100,000 rpm so there's plenty of leeway to make them smaller and faster. I'll bet you can hold them in the palm of your hand, complete with motors/drive etc.
(the mountings will be interesting though, as will making them get through the crash tests)
pierre_pierre
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Posts: 19,757
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Fuel issues

from figures above 200 mile 337 litre approx 2.8 MPG that would get me over 2000 mile
Pegasus56
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Posts: 29
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Fuel issues

It has been said (can't remember who By?) that the prodution of all this 'Bio-Fuel' is one of the reasons that some of the poorer countries are now Banning (or at least seriously curtailing) the Export of their Crops!
More & more of them are finding that instead of being able to earn millions (or Billions) in Exporting Food, they are now getting to the point were they are not producing enough, because Farmers are being encouraged to Grow Bio-Fuel Crops!

P.S.
I wonder how long it is going to take before there are More Hyrogen (or similar) cars being produced/sold than Internal-Combustion Engined Gas-Guzzlers! Roll eyes Wink
Community Veteran
Posts: 7,263
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Registered: 30-08-2007

Re: Fuel issues

I rather thought flywheels had been used in car engines for donkeys years, they usually have the starter ring attached round their edge, and is one of the major reasons why 4 cylinder engines manage to be as smooth running as they are at lowish revs. Racing engines of course are usually of far more cylinders 10, 12 and 16 being normal, that are inherently more stable at higher rev without a flywheel.
The rights and wrongs of the production of bio fuels, is something world governments are soon going to have to seriously address, that may eventually turn out to be the howler of the age.
Experience; is something you gain, just after you needed it most.

When faced with two choices, simply toss a coin. It works not because it settles the question for you. But because in that brief moment while the coin is in the air. You suddenly know what you are hoping for.
pierre_pierre
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Posts: 19,757
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Fuel issues

Yes Bio fuels are one of the main cause of deforestation in parts of the world, and it is true that areas are not producing enough food for the locals. 
Answer  Grin build large tanked sewerage farms and trap off  resulting methane,  Feed the locals to produce more SH.. t, then burn that in cars, or run Gas Turbines to produce electricity.  Anglia Waters, van fleet in Colchester run with this method
photo, Electricity Producer, Copford Colchester  on egde of large rubbish dump
pjemmanuel
Grafter
Posts: 349
Registered: 05-04-2007

Re: Fuel issues

Quote from: HPsauce
Many a flywheel runs at around 100,000 rpm so there's plenty of leeway to make them smaller and faster. I'll bet you can hold them in the palm of your hand, complete with motors/drive etc.
(the mountings will be interesting though, as will making them get through the crash tests)

I can't give you exact speeds and technical details, but the FIA has placed a limit on the energy that can be recovered in the KERS to 600KJ per lap, which apparently equates to 80hp over a period of 6.7 seconds - so there's not much to be gained from them for F1, given that they currently have around 800hp to play with anyway.
As I said in my post, I think there could be a benefit in the future for electric vehicles implementing this technology - although I wasn't aware that this was used in milk floats in the past, as pierre-pierre mentioned. Still, F1 is a long way ahead of milk floats, so perhaps there's still some potential technology there to be developed.
pjemmanuel
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Re: Fuel issues

Quote from: petlew
@ Phil_E, you (together with Maranello) are obviously enthusiastic, which is fine with me, you're probably not very interested in bowls which I am, and we do use cars (although we fill them up with players) to get around to matches. But just out of idle curiosity (and I promise I won't use it against you...others may however) do you know what the fuel consumption of say a race prepared F1 Ferrari is? It's not a trick, I don't know.

Don't quote me, but I believe it is the region of 0.75 litres per kilometre, or around 3.8mpg, at full, flat out sprint speed. That's not to say that they continue to use this kind of consumption all the time - and lets face it, it is a hideous amount of fuel. Most of the fuel is used up when accelerating out of corners, so to reduce the fuel consumption we could just have fewer corners  Cheesy Oval racing maybe.
I will just point out that F1 fuel is not exactly the same as the fuel we use in our cars. F1 fuel must not contain any compound which isn't found in normal fuel, but the proportions are different.
Community Veteran
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Re: Fuel issues

Quote

, you're probably not very interested in bowls which I am, and we do use cars (although we fill them up with players)


Most people fill their cars up with fuel...... either diesel or petrol,  Roll eyes
never heard of a "tobacco powered"  car  Roll eyes Grin Cheesy
Community Veteran
Posts: 7,263
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Registered: 30-08-2007

Re: Fuel issues

@ shutter. Yeah, I suppose I should have seen that one coming...
Experience; is something you gain, just after you needed it most.

When faced with two choices, simply toss a coin. It works not because it settles the question for you. But because in that brief moment while the coin is in the air. You suddenly know what you are hoping for.
Bob_Milton
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Registered: 31-07-2007

Re: Fuel issues

When shutter said,
Quote
never heard of a "tobacco powered"  car   

it reminded me of when most F1 cars proudly displayed adverts for cigarettes.
Community Veteran
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Registered: 10-08-2007

Re: Fuel issues

I don't understand why F1 is thought to be a problem about the amount of fuel that is used.
I think it is 20 cars racing around for 2 hours 16 times a year.....one of the many mathematicians on here could work out the details of fuel used.
It seems to me the OP has a problem with F1 and wants to compare the environmental consequence of F1 against bowling.
This is the problem
The United States accounts for about 44 percent of the world’s gasoline consumption. In 2003 The United States of America consumed 476,474,000,000 litres (476.474 gigalitres), which equates to 1.3 gigalitres of gasoline each day (about 360 million US liquid gallons). The U.S. used about 510 billion litres (138 billion gallons) of gasoline in 2006.
Bob_Milton
Grafter
Posts: 688
Registered: 31-07-2007

Re: Fuel issues

I spent about three years travelling in the USA in a motorhome. It soon became clear that they have a habit of leaving their engines running quite unnecessarily.
For example, if they wanted to go for a shower, they would get in their pick-up and drive about 50 yards to the toilet block. They would then leave the engine running whilst they had their shower.
In a similar fashion if they were out somewhere and wanted to buy something they left their engine running whilst they made their purchases. It was just the thing that most people did.
Community Veteran
Posts: 1,100
Registered: 05-04-2007

Re: Fuel issues

Speaking of Americans.  On one of the other boards I look at there is a complaint that the price of fuel as gone up to $4 per gallon!
With regarding to the original topic, I noticed everyone is keeps referring to F1 but not the other motor sports. Now If you took all sports in to consideration in the UK I wonder how much fuel is used on average per day? We could also go one step further and say how much fuel is used by any body making an unnecessary journey?
Community Veteran
Posts: 7,263
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Registered: 30-08-2007

Re: Fuel issues

Quote from: Santiago
I don't understand why F1 is thought to be a problem about the amount of fuel that is used.
I think it is 20 cars racing around for 2 hours 16 times a year.....one of the many mathematicians on here could work out the details of fuel used.
It seems to me the OP has a problem with F1 and wants to compare the environmental consequence of F1 against bowling.
This is the problem
The United States accounts for about 44 percent of the world’s gasoline consumption. In 2003 The United States of America consumed 476,474,000,000 litres (476.474 gigalitres), which equates to 1.3 gigalitres of gasoline each day (about 360 million US liquid gallons). The U.S. used about 510 billion litres (138 billion gallons) of gasoline in 2006.

Experience; is something you gain, just after you needed it most.

When faced with two choices, simply toss a coin. It works not because it settles the question for you. But because in that brief moment while the coin is in the air. You suddenly know what you are hoping for.