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Frontline Police Officers

AlaricAdair
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Re: Frontline Police Officers

The police should not be armed to carry on routine patrol, but should have controlled rapid access to arms backed up by thorough routine training.

I still believe the banning of hand guns even to controlled sports clubs was a major mistake. I think all British adults should undergo some form of part time National Service including weapons training, but that the weapons should be stored only in secure local magazines. Access to the weapons in those magazines should be controlled by the Army . The size of our standing military is too low to act in our defence, we need organised militias which can also support the police. 

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billnotben
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Re: Frontline Police Officers

No I don't think more police should be armed. It just increases the availability of guns and makes the armed police a target. The robber/terrorist wouldn't need to be armed. They would just need to get the gun on view from the officer standing in front of them.

I would rather see local police stations reopened and the new police office blocks closed.

 

Minivanman
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Re: Frontline Police Officers

Has anybody actually asked frontline police officers if they want to carry side arms - and let's remind ourselves who we are talking about here. With the way the world is today they could not pay me enough to go out on that line with only my **** in my hand.

Having lightly armed police officers works in France for example, and France has not become America, that catch all excuse for not doing so.


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rongtw
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Re: Frontline Police Officers

I would like to think most police don't want to be armed , tazer and pepper spray is adequate for most

But there is a need for larger specialist armed sections to be on call , and it would be better to bring back more local police stations .

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gleneagles
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Re: Frontline Police Officers

@LordFox

Yes I fully agree with what you say, the changes that took place destroyed the sport for many who simply gave it up.

But for anyone who wants to get a FAC they could still do so by joining a club.

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LordFox
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Re: Frontline Police Officers


Minivanman wrote:God forbid we should give side arms to those hobby bobby community coppers Roll_eyes

"hobby bobby"... I love it! We see more of those around here than real coppers. Yes, I certainly wouldn't want them anywhere near firearms.

198kHz
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Re: Frontline Police Officers

We need more George Dixons, and more William Bodies, but I'd rather they were separate roles.


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Anonymous
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Re: Frontline Police Officers

Who is planning on paying for it? The initial two week training course for firearms in the PSNI is £582.94 (and that's a 2011 number, it's probably gone up).

https://www.psni.police.uk/globalassets/advice--information/our-publications/disclosure-logs/2011/hu...

That's for training prospective recruits alone. Then there's the cost of buying the guns and everything that goes with buying a gun. The PSNI has 7,200 officers and 2,500 staff. That's for the whole of Northern Ireland. Greater Manchester alone has 7,202 constables.

Then there's the fact that our government while it arms itself to the teeth, removes as many arms that are left from civilians that they possibly can.

 

Edit: Sums. Say that GMP buy a pistol for every constable and get a good deal on Glock 17s at £400 a Glock or £600 for a Glock 19 (A gen 4 Glock can be bought in Northern Ireland on the private market new for £495, a gen 4 Glock 19 can be bought for £675). That's nearly 2.9 million or 4.3 for a sidearm alone, depending on which you buy. Then there's MP5s, G36's and HK33's they might end up using. And that's just for the firearms. That doesn't involve training. It doesn't involve officers repeating training because they failed. In the above link I posted an officer had to retake the test FOUR times. 10 officers failed it twice and 58 officers failed it once.

With all the cuts that have been made to policing, the military, the NHS and everywhere else throughout British society, where is the money going to come from to arm and train all these officers?

 

Edit 2: Here's a link covering firearms discharged and reasons given.

https://www.psni.police.uk/globalassets/advice--information/our-publications/disclosure-logs/2015/co...

From 2015, it estimates that the 15 days firearm training of a single officer is £1,300. Refresher training is 2 days at £70 a day, once every year. It also puts the cost of a single glock at £410, not including any other equipment such as holsters, belts and ammunition.

It also doesn't cover the cost of creating large secure armouries to keep all those guns in every police station, since hand guns are illegal in England, Wales and Scotland for private citizens. They would need to re-write the law to allow police officers to take their weapons home. Then who pays for secure storage in an officers home should he decide to take it home? Him, or the police force? In Northern Ireland private hand gun ownership is legal for both sport and personal protection, so this isn't an issue.

7up
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Re: Frontline Police Officers


@LordFox wrote:

Minivanman wrote:God forbid we should give side arms to those hobby bobby community coppers Roll_eyes

"hobby bobby"... I love it! We see more of those around here than real coppers. Yes, I certainly wouldn't want them anywhere near firearms.


I think you're referring to PCSOs right? There is a nice little acronym for those guys:

Plastic Cop Substitute Object. Sounds quite descriptive too Cheesy

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AlaricAdair
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Re: Frontline Police Officers


@Anonymous wrote:

Who is planning on paying for it? ...

 What is the cost of police investigations and compensation after a terrorist incident which may have been prevented or mitigated if police officers were armed?

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Frontline Police Officers

@AlaricAdair and what is the cost of investigations relating to officers discharging weapons? At the end of the day "arm the police!" is just another knee jerk reaction when something happens. Nobody ever consider how they're going to do it, or how much it's going to cost, or who is going to pay for it. GMP as an example would easily cost over ten million to implement. The MET has over 30k officers. The police service of Scotland has over 15k officers. There are forty five territorial police forces in the UK and three special police forces. So you're looking in the region of just over 170k officers.

  • 170k times 1,300 = 221,000,000 for training alone. Provided every single one of those officers passes first time.
  • 170k times 410 = 69,700,000 for a single side arm (Glock 17), not including the holsters or belts for them and the ammunition. And not including semi automatic rifles and shotguns they might also end up buying.
  • That's 290,700,000 total for training and a giving every police officer in the UK a gun.
  • 170k times 70 = 11,900,000 times 2 for the two days of retraining they're expected to take once a year.

And that's just for starters. Like I said, people calling for the police to be armed do so every time there's an attack or some atrocity, but when asked to come up with the facts and figures of how they plan to arm every single officer they don't know how or where they're going to get the money from. What services exactly are you willing to butcher to see every officer armed? Maybe we can continue tearing the NHS up and forcing people into private health care? Maybe you'd like to see a tax rise to pay for it, while your pay cheque doesn't grow in line with inflation. Maybe we can sell more arms to Saudi Arabia which is the home of Wahabbism and the branch of Islam that is the cause of most of the terror we're seeing in the West?

All of that is on top of already existing police budgets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_forces_of_the_United_Kingdom

The MET alone has a budget in the billions. GMP has a half a billion as a budget. The PSNI budget is close to a billion quid. All those guns need servicing too. You need armouries and armourers. You need consumables, such as ammunition. Ammunition needs to be used, 9mm factory loads have a shelf life of ten years.

Seriously. Someone tell me where they think the money should come from?

Pete11
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Re: Frontline Police Officers

I can't help thinking that with more officers carrying guns, more innocent people will be shot at, wounded or even killed. We are getting too 'Americanized' where firearms are concerned. There's enough killings on the streets as it is without adding more. I have a shotgun certificate myself but the 2 guns I have are kept at a gun club and I don't have ammo in the house, it only makes the house a target for the local (or not so local) criminals. 

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Frontline Police Officers

@Pete11 every single police officer in Northern Ireland is armed and we're constantly at a higher level of terrorist threat than the rest of the UK (dissident / republican). Police pulling and discharging their firearms here is a rarity (in fact most discharges are negligent). And there's a lot of paperwork involved should you discharge a weapon. In that regard, we're much stricter than America and our police departments aren't allowed to investigate themselves. Every time a weapon is discharged in Northern Ireland, it is reviewed by the police ombudsman.

Some examples:
https://policeombudsman.org/Investigation-Reports/Discharge-of-police-machine-gun-at-Ardoyne,-Belfas
https://policeombudsman.org/Investigation-Reports/Discharge-of-firearm-at-Carrickfergus
https://policeombudsman.org/Investigation-Reports/Discharge-of-firearm-at-Rathcoole,-Newtownabbey

Edit: A search of Ombudsman reports shows that taser use is much higher than regular firearm use.

Pete11
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Re: Frontline Police Officers

@bjallenby I quite agree with what you are saying and am in total agreement with a separate entity like a police ombudsman doing investigations. The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes someone totally innocent dies or is wounded before the investigations start and I think that even more will suffer when it can be avoided.
 
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Steve
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Re: Frontline Police Officers

Officers with a gun is not going to stop terrorists is it? the terrorists do not seem to be afraid of death. And that is what this is all about. However if an officer can shoot someone right between the eyeballs if that someone is driving a truck or a car and needs stopped quick then I am all for it.

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