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E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

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Pro
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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

Whatever the Daily Mail, or any other paper for that matter, says.

Whatever is known about the chemistry. And I suspect that if you look you'll find conflicting evidence.

This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_electronic_cigarette_aerosol

Looks to me as if there are various nasties in there for example. 

 

There is still not the statistical evidence one way or another to know what the long term effects are.

There can't be because the whole thing is relatively new.

 

And whatever the case, why do it anyway?

What really is the point?

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia


@Minesapint wrote:

There can't be because the whole thing is relatively new.

 

And whatever the case, why do it anyway?

What really is the point?


 

Given it's been going for a couple of decades, "relatively new" is not really a thing now, unless comparing it to centuries of known effects from tobacco use (Smoking, chewing, snorting, even blowing it up bottoms to revive drowned people), so far the only bad effects are from bad liquid sources, just as you wouldn't buy mystery meat from a street vendor, you wouldn't buy dodgy liquids if you were smart...

 

And as already said, the reasons people do it are for their own enjoyment, and as a way to replace smoking (given you can fond lovely things like uranium, plutonium, benzine and lead in tobacco smoke) and to get off the addiction to the various toxic chemicals in tobacco smoke...

 

Other people have used it to stop snacking on sweet foods and drinking soft drinks too, as the vapour is quite sweet in itself due to the glycerine used (tasty stuff, as used in medicines, foods and personal lubricants too!), and add a decent regulated flavouring, can taste just like off-the-shelf sweets & drinks, no need for any nicotine in those either...

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

@twocvbloke Not really 20 years. About 15, and it takes around 25 years to get any sort of meaningful stats with this sort of thing once the use becomes widespread. So probably another 15 years.

 

"Whats' really the point?" was meant to be rhetorical.

There really is no point at all.

The same as smoking.

I can find "reasons" to justify virtually anything I want to do.

Breathing in smoke, aerosols as in "vaping" or anything else isn't necessary, and it's not a natural thing to do.

Better for you than smoking?

Maybe.

But it's not better for you than doing neither.  

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

Well, we breathe in all kinds of things we're not meant to on a daily basis, fumes from engines, gaseous emissions from sewers, volcanic ash settling out of the air, they're unavoidable, and to get all upset about breathing something else in, well, there's always gas masks (I find mine useful when certain neighbours are polluting the air with cannabis smoke which blows into this house stinking the place up), sure you look like a wally wearing such a thing, but, hey, cleans up what you breathe in... Grin

 

But, at the end of the day, what people do is down to choice, if someone wants to smoke, their choice, if they choose to cheap out and buy dodgy cheap fags from Brenda three doors down, their choice, if someone chooses to buy e-cig liquids laced with methanol, butane and other solvents to get a THC high, their choice, but to lay blame on others for their own doing, no, I have no sympathy for the stupid, and if they're going to kill themselves with stupid acts, so be it, it's their choice...

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

Yes but most of those things are unavoidable to a greater or lesser degree.

I do agree about freedom of choice, but I'm not sure that helping people justify what they do is a good idea.

 

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

Well, allowing people to justify what they're doing is freedom, not allowing it would be considered oppression, and we wouldn't want that now, would we? Grin

 

But, to blanket ban something because of the effects of a small variable, that is a form of oppression in itself, just like with the diesel debate and the attributed 40k deaths out of 70-odd million in the UK therefore diesel engines must be banned outright, it makes the argument very weak, and yet has been justified regardless as it is a freedom for people to do...

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

Simply not justifying on their behalf what someone else wants to do, that might be dangerous to their health, isn't oppression though.

Nor is pointing out that said justification might be a bad idea.

And it could be argued that while we need transport to move goods and people around, and all transport pollutes to some extent, we don't deliberately sit around breathing the exhaust fumes because we think they taste nice.

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

The problem with "might" is that it's neither "does" or "does not", after all in minority cases, Water "might" kill you through various ways, but for the overall majority, it doesn't, but it might, the overall evidence so far shows that vaping doesn't cause harm, but in the minority of cases due to certain factors, it "might"...

 

And that's why I call bull on articles like what the DM published, they took evidence from the minority cases and said it "Does" cause harm, when it really doesn't for the majority, it's just sensationalist rubbish set out to sell papers, just as with the transportation of people and goods with diesel engines, their claim was it "does", when overall, it doesn't really...

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

Water can indeed kill you in various ways.

Or at least what's in the water might.

However, millennia of experience, more modern medical evidence aside, proves that not drinking water leads to death within a few days in any case. So even if you thought the water was a bit dodgy, you might take the risk of drinking it.

 

However, I have so far failed to find any evidence that not  vaping causes any health problems at all.

Whereas there seems to be at least some evidence that doing so does cause health problems.

 

That you dislike the Daily Mail article, or any other news medium, or that you dislike the opinion that they come up with doesn't alter those facts.

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

It's not necessarily what is in the water, but the water itself, flash floods, steam explosions, drowning, etc., water is LETHAL, and if it were up to the DM, they'd have it banned too based on how dangerous it is, in the minority of cases... Funny

 

But, the vaping side of things, a minority of cases due to products being contaminated with chemicals and solvents that should not be inhaled have caused illness and death, in a few cases, so the act of vaping is not the killer in itself, but the act of human stupidity is in buying cheap stuff, or buying something made by someone who knows nothing of the interaction between chemistry and biology (or do and they just don't give a rat's bottom so long as they get the money), or using devices badly set up or manufactured which does indeed cause toxic chemicals to be formed. It's all about the human factor, if someone's going to be dumb, then legislation isn't going to save them from themselves... Crazy2

 

It'd be far easier to ban stupid people, but unfortunately that's not legal...

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia


@twocvbloke wrote:

 

It'd be far easier to ban stupid people, but unfortunately that's not legal...


 

 

 

But is legal on this forum !... ? ? ?    Grin

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

If it were, then "Daily Mail" would be in the swear filter... Funny

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

Yeah, but having 75 tons of vaping products dropped on you "en masse" isn't going to do you much good either.

In the case of either this or the cases you give, it's not something anyone is choosing to do.

 

And it appears that the contaminates are there anyway to a greater or lesser extent.

So whether the Daily Mail, me, or anyone else is saying it's not a good idea, then because you don't agree doesn't automatically make it a good idea.   

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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia

I know I'm late to the party, but that Daily Mail article is a little late too, and is sadly a bit short on the facts. @twocvbloke has covered most of what I would have said, but a couple of thoughts have struck me. IF vaping is so dangerous that it has to be banned - India and some states in the USA - why do they still allow the smoking of cigarettes at all? Their carcinogenic and respiratory dangers far outweigh any so far proven danger from vaping. Is this 'research' funded by governments aware of the rapidly falling revenue from declining tobacco sales or, heaven forbid, the tobacco industry, seeing itself being crushed?

John
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Re: E-cigs..... a SERIOUS warning, from Australia


@Minesapint wrote:

Yeah, but having 75 tons of vaping products dropped on you "en masse" isn't going to do you much good either.

In the case of either this or the cases you give, it's not something anyone is choosing to do.

 

And it appears that the contaminates are there anyway to a greater or lesser extent.

So whether the Daily Mail, me, or anyone else is saying it's not a good idea, then because you don't agree doesn't automatically make it a good idea.   


 

Just leaving the house could land you six feet under too, them doorsteps are insanely dangerous if you mis-time your footstep, fall over and crack your head on the pavement, but in the majority of cases, people don't...

 

There's an element of risk in everything we do on a daily basis, again it's the "might" factor, it's always there, but it's only in the minority, I might die from an airborne goat herpes virus if I walked to tesco right now, but in reality, I won't, might, but won't...

 

And as for agreeing, it's not about that, it's about them misrepresenting their facts as the 100% perfect empirical evidence that all vaping is bad and will kill everyone, which it won't, but, they claim that about a lot of things they publish as fact, and yet people believe them without researching what they're harping on against in order to have a fair and balanced view...

 

Cigarettes are more dangerous, but aren't banned, it's just media hype trying to scaremonger people, just as with diesel engines, brexit, cancers and medicines...