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Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

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Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16453869
Must admit it's been 20  years since I've travelled on a train in England, last time the seat I'd booked and paid for was suddenly through a mix-up with carriages was 'not available', had to stand from London-Sheffield.

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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

Yes..... I do....
The people who are "against it" are the people who will not benefit directly from it, and see it as a blight on THEIR property values.... However, in the same vogue, you get people protesting about by-pass roads for villages, or small towns, where congestion is a problem... and when the by pass has been built, the same people are very glad that it has been....
so to the NIMBY`s..... shut up... this country NEEDS investment in the railways, and the infrastructure, to make sure YOUR HOUSE VALUE RISES with the increase in the country`s wealth as whole..
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

I've never understood the chase for so called high speed services.
Surely what's really needed is a regular and reliable service with enough seats.

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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

HS2 is really a "second" route, to the same destination.... the trains will not necessarily run any faster, but will not stop so often, and not need to slow down so much for the curves, therefore the "perceived" speed will be quicker times between the start and finish.
Also.. having an " alternative " route, will take away some traffic off the congested junctions, and speed up the journey times, and make the services more reliable to time keeping.
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

I'm just a bit dubious that it will have the desired outcome.
The more roads built, the more traffic that appears to fill them.
The more houses built, the more people arrive to fill them.
There has to be a sensible cut off point somewhere.
whelpton
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

When I used to travel to see the missus in london every few weeks or so at that point I thought that anything we can do to improve the state of the railways in this country would be a good idea. I also used to use the cross country route when I was at university a couple of years back.
I seem to recall the days when a train journey was comfortable, fast and relaxing; now it just seems to be bogged down in regulations, ticket barriers and jobsworth "I've been on a course so I'm giving you a fine" ticket conductors.
In regards to the HS2 plan itself, I don't know if I would say thats the best plan that was submitted. It didn't even originally run past sheffield! I personally believe we should be investing some money and research into maglev trains instead of sticking with a generations old system.
The government has not provided the public with any meaningful details about the HS2 system as far as I can see (I know its still in the planning phase), what is the price differance going to be on this new system? Will the current low speed system pricing be affected by this in any way? Is this new system going to be tied up in another brilliant PPP where the rolling stock, tracks, signals and stations are all owned by several different companies?
Quote from: shutter
and not need to slow down so much for the curves

Wasn't that the idea with the Pendelino trains that Virgin introduced? 140Mph if memory serves me correctly. However, once again the company that ran the signals and the track didn't talk to the company that ran the trains; nothing happened to the WCML and AFAIK there's just a few places where these trains can run at full speed.
I miss British Rail.
VileReynard
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

British Rail even developed a tilting gas-turbine powered train that reached 150 mph in the 1970's.

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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

Well, for what it's worth, I think this country needs to invest in its infrastructure.
It's that, from the past, which has enabled us to stay a rich country (along with many other factors).
Without any vision we'll just be mediocre - though maybe that's not a bad thing sometimes......
As for whether this is the right investment I've no idea. Personally I think it makes little sense just to go to Brum; it needs committment from day 1 to go much further North - maybe even to Inverness?
As for the Nimby comment Shutter, I think that's irrelevant and doesn't contribute to a grown-up discussion.  Wink
(The plan shows the tunnels passing about 25m underground some 50m from my house  Shocked  and as my Civil Engineer daughter has pointed out, it's 2 wide tunnels some distance apart with assorted service ducts, not a thin line on a map)
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

HP... I give you two examples of road "improvements" that I have personally seen the difference between before and after...
1 . Newbury By-pass.... Located in a strategic position on the A34 north south route from Southampton/Winchester to the midlands  (Port to Manufacturing area). this used to be a nightmare place to travel thru, even as a "private motorist" in the late 60`s there was ALWAYS a big traffic jam, which, back in those days used to take a good 30 to 40 mins to clear, with traffic going  through the town, and the local s were screaming out for a better route... one was built but unfortunately the availability of more private cars, and the increase in Road Transport for goods BECAUSE OF THE RUN DOWN RAILWAYS, there was still traffic jams.... the NIMBY`s still complained, and then the big new by-pass was announced, with joining up the southern A34 to the M4 and the northern A34, various "do-gooder" groups, including the NIMBY`s, got together and delayed it as best they could, but it was eventually built.... Now the traffic runs past Newbury, and the town centre and local roads are (almost) a pleasure to drive on... and guess what ..... all the NIMBY`s are happy , because they can get to work without local traffic jams, and also they can get to London quicker because of the link of the bypass to the M4.
2.  Hindhead tunnel..... again, a big construction job  over 1.2 miles long, and £371M it took over 4 years to build and open.... it is in the middle of the run of the A3 from Portsmouth to London, and believe it or not, it was the place of the only set of traffic lights between Portsmouth and London.... where, again, there used to be traffic tail backs of over 1.5 miles before the traffic lights. the junction was 4 roads in typical + formation but each road had it`s own priority, so only one road moved at each turn of the lights.... Hindhead is now a quiet backwater, and again, the locals are happy because their property prices have risen due to the local infrastructure of the tunnel, improving the location for commute to London.... the same NIMBY`s who were originally against digging the tunnels, because it would spoil their dog walking.
so that is the "grown up" discussion that you wanted,.... NIMBY or not... makes no difference.... remember, when the railways were in their infancy, there was local oppositon, just as there is today. and yet, here we are, bemoaning all the cuts that were made in the railway system in the 60`s which caused the traffic problems we have had ever since.
The reason there are so many "delays" on todays railway is because there are no "alternate" routes, deemed by Dr Beeching, to be unprofitable, he chopped them, causing more traffic on already over loaded tracks and major junctions that just could not cope with the extra traffic going through them, as they were never designed to do that job, and nobody thought to increase the track bed capability in those junctions... instead the tracks were ripped up, literally, and the land sold off to ensure that they could not be used in the future.  How far seeing that guy was.... now somebody has a "vision" of the future we have the NIMBY`s and the "environmentalists", joining forces to give us a "luddite" train service, so we can continue to moan about the slow and terrible service, instead of supporting efforts to improve it, and gain the benefit of it. 
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

We certainly need investment in rail infrastructure but I'm still not convinced that HS2 is the right investment.
We've hundreds of old lines that used to run all over the country that the government shut down. Surely we should be looking at reopening those instead and providing access to public transport that many rural communities lost so many years ago?
Why is is so important that there is a HS2 serving london? - Doesn't it still have other intercity trains that run to serve it? - I've travelled on one with virgin trains previously and whilst it was bl**dy expensive, it was there, it was available, reliable, comfortable and it did the job. Why do we need another one?
That said, there is of course the arguement that by creating HS2, it will encourage more rail travel which will support the reopening of old lines. Scotland is already making progress here with the long awaited reopening of the Waverly line however in England the DFT is still dragging its feet over doing anything potentially useful to anyone.
IMO, HS2 was another rich boys toy that wouldn't really be used by the masses like the chunnel. They should of left British Rail to do this kind of thing. BR were the professionals at railway operating not a bunch of politicians who have now inflated the cost of railway usage, still left us with huge delays and can now barely maintain the network.
@Foxy: The APT-E was only a prototype (hence the E for experimental). It led to the creation of the APT-P (Passenger) which wasn't overly successful although it was way ahead of its time and now many hispeed companies are building their trains based on this tilting technology.
If the government had done its job properly, BR could of sold and exported these trains and its technology across the globe but no, instead they reduce us to squabbling about one hi-speed line when in truth we could of had a superior infrastructure by now. Notwork Fail have made nothing better at all apart from the profits of the contractors they use which is paid for by hgher tickets.
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

Few years back I used to commute (by train) between Waikanae and Wellington (New Zealand), the trip took just over an hour with 5 or 6 stops (distance of  30 miles).
The train was not high speed, everybody (always) had a seat, even in the 'rush hour', tea & Coffee where supplied free as were both morning and evening newspapers. It was an enjoyable relaxed commute at a fair price for the ticket, didn't matter if you bought the ticket in advance or 'on the day' cost was the same.
I learnt speed was not a necessity, I'm for train travel but I think we should get the infrastructure working correctly first (for instance get everybody on all train services seated).
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

Quote from: journeys
get everybody on all train services seated.

In these days of rampant Health & Safety I don't understand why standing on trains and buses is seen to be OK.
Quote from: HPsauce
it needs committment from day 1 to go much further North - maybe even to Inverness?

That would make more sense opening up the relatively underdeveloped far north.
tinto
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment



"A Y-shaped section taking branches to Manchester, Leeds and possibly further north could be finished by 2033.
The entire cost of the project is expected to be £32bn"
(from the article quoted)
Aye right
We peasants "further north" were promised a link to Eurostar and the Channel tunnel when that was built, only to be told years later, surprise, surprise, that the cost would be prohibitive so it wasn't going to happen, ever.
I'll believe this latest promise/fairy story,  when they complete it either on time or for £32bn, complete with trains built in Japan or Germany, powered by electricity imported from France, and running on rails made from steel imported from the Far East.
Incidentally, this steel might well come from the integrated steelworks priced and exported as scrap  from Ravenscraig,  and which  was up and running in India about two years later. More surprise, surprise, this happened on the watch of the last Conservative government, and is one of the reasons Dave is thought to be sticking pins in wee effigies of Thatcher and Major.
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

I think it's a mistake. As someone who for the last decade has commuted the west coast mainline from the midlands to london that amount of expense to save approximately 20 minutes seems mad. If there was one train an hour that didn't stop at places like milton keynes and watford junction that could save 10 minutes.
If this goes in then all I can expect to see is that the current wcml service will suffer greatly and / or the prices go up even more. As has been pointed out the pendalino's can go fast enough and tilt but not all the track is certified to run at 140MPH.
At almost 140 return for a full open return already on the wcml, how much would it cost for a HS2 ticket?
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Re: Does anybody think HS2 is a worth while investment

Quote from: dvorak
At almost 140 return for a full open return already on the wcml, how much would it cost for a HS2 ticket?

Too much and if its only going between London and Birmingham then what is the point? - I've not heard anything special about Birmingham that would make me want to go there and spend that amount on the train to do so.
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