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Criminal Justice

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Criminal Justice

Normally I have great respect for our police - they do a very hard job in very trying times, and I know that when mistakes happen it is not always their fault as they have to work within the law and follow guidelines.
However, having just read reports on the two brothers from Edlington I am beginning to wonder if the system is completely 'not fit for purpose' as the modern jargon goes.
When you actually take time to read the history of these boys it is appalling that they weren't locked up long before this happened. Only the week before they had attacked someone and there was a long list of serious crime.  I'm wondering just how bad children have to be before something is done about them.
Having worked in the community with challenging families, I just can't believe how these lads were a) left in the care of the mother and b) allowed to continue with their misdemeanors.  They had also been through the Magistrates Courts on more than one occasion.
I reckon that the whole system - police and social services must be dropping to pieces. Either that, or we are becoming too complacent about crime and too concerned about human rights.
31 REPLIES
jmd
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Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Criminal Justice

I know I thought the same after reading about those two boys......................... their background being described as "toxic"  - it just makes one wonder!
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Re: Criminal Justice

Quote from: poppy
too concerned about human rights.

That, I feel sums it up.
The only problem seems to be which human, the victim or the perpetrator Undecided
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Community Veteran
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Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: Criminal Justice

I fully agree.  Our justice system has been turned completely round in recent years to protect the criminal and not the victim.  How about the recent case where a TV presenter waved a knife from her kitchen window as a burglar in her garden.  She was the one to be reprimanded by the Police - it just nonsense Angry
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Re: Criminal Justice

With regard to this case, I know the area reasonably well and it is very deprived - much more run down since the Tory government closed down the mining industry.
However, the lads had apparently been living in another area (not far away though) that wasn't so bad.
Their parents  had 7 children in 10 years, didn't work, and yet managed to fund a lifestyle of drinking and drug-taking.
It's astonishing that welfare benefits support such a carry-on.
There's a clear correlation between deprivation, unemployment and crime, but it's not going to be solved by the government throwing money at
people in the form of benefits. It needs something more radical and inventive than that.
Community Veteran
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Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: Criminal Justice

I know what you mean Poppy.  What to do is difficult to decide.  I would certainly see anyone living on benefits was assessed and made to work if at all possible. We allow too many people to sponge off the State without any checks whatsoever.  Perhaps we should adopt the system used in some of the US States where benefits are limited to a set period and then removed.
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Re: Criminal Justice

Quote from: artmo
Perhaps we should adopt the system used in some of the US States where benefits are limited to a set period and then removed.

I wouldn't like to see people go hungry, but I've no quarms in giving out 'food coupons'. instead of cash.
Anyone caught trying to cash (or accept) food-coupons for alcohol or cigarettes would mean a suspension of benfits/licence.
That should sort several social problems out in one go.
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Re: Criminal Justice

A lot of years ago I was on benefits for a short period and managed to get a job.
I needed some boots for work and was given a token by social services to take to a shop for the boots.
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Midnight_Caller
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Re: Criminal Justice

@artmo, The problem is that this country is selling off all our assets to the USA, Chinare and so on!
So the jobs are geting less & less to get, why doesn't the government help out industries like British Steel in the North-East of England, we are getting a lot of hot Air from this government on what thay will do to help the North-East out!  
And yes British Steel was sold off!
[Edit]
@journeys, The problem with food-coupons will not pay for the Gas & Electric, nor will it pay for the Rent and so on!
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Registered: 24-09-2008

Re: Criminal Justice

@Midnight Caller, very good point, thanks for that.
Community Veteran
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Re: Criminal Justice

I like the coupons idea – yes, it'd need some work (such as to deal with the point MidnightCaller raised) but the general idea is very sound.
Quote from: artmo
I fully agree.  Our justice system has been turned completely round in recent years to protect the criminal and not the victim.  How about the recent case where a TV presenter waved a knife from her kitchen window as a burglar in her garden.  She was the one to be reprimanded by the Police - it just nonsense Angry

I'd just like to pick up on this quickly: as far as I could tell she wasn't reprimanded, nor was she given any kind of formal warning/caution. She was simply reminded to be careful about brandishing weapons at people – which I think was fair enough.
Community Veteran
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Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: Criminal Justice

I wouldn't want people to go hungry but we seem to have a benefit society where some are better off than those who work. Benefits should provide a basic level and no more.  Journeys idea of stamps is good and if it was a smart card it could be used to pay rent, gas etc.  it could be limited to use only with approved suppliers.
David_W
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Registered: 19-07-2007

Re: Criminal Justice

Quote from: Midnight
@journeys, The problem with food-coupons will not pay for the Gas & Electric, nor will it pay for the Rent and so on!

Benefits already pay rent (and council tax etc.). Previously rent would be paid directly to the housing provider but the government, in it's infinite wisdom decided it would be better to pay the rent directly to the tenant.  Now lots of people are owed rent because instead of using the money to pay rent, the tenants are spending it.
Gas and electric can be paid for with tokens easily enough, a lot of people on benefits will use a "key" meter, it'll just be a case of sending out a token every week which they take to the post office/shop, hand over the key + token and get that amount of money stuck onto their key card, the amount of money they get for the key card would depend on how big their family is, how many rooms, how old the house etc. but it is doable.
It would be so very easy to implement a system of tokens which can only be spent on food/clothing/essentials.  If you take away the ability for jobless 18 year olds to buy booze/fags, said 18 year olds suddenly have an incentive to find a job.  As it is now the government will be giving them near enough £100 a week or whatever it is, to spend on what they want, where is the incentive to get to work for marginally more cash but more bills?
The welfare system should be a safety net for the unfortunate members of society who though no fault of their own find themselves unemployed, it should not be considered a lifestyle choice.
Under 18's getting pregnant?  Simple solution, no person under 18 (except in exceptional circumstances for instance, abuse and needing to get out of a home) is allowed to claim any benefits, even if having a baby, the parents of the child and grandparents must take responsibility for the child.  Effect?  Parents making sure their 14 year old kids are not out getting knocked up, or their 16 year olds getting knocked up to get a council flat and benefits.
Out of work for 3 months?  Enforced training, or social projects where they have to work a proper weeks work doing things like cleaning a town, social projects which enhance a town instead of standing around doing nothing. Getting paid £100 for a job which should get them £250 will soon make people get a job!
Leave school at 16?  Unable to claim any benefits till they reach 18, if they refuse to go into any form of training before their 18th birthday, unable to claim any benefits until they are 21.
Long term sick?  Jobs that are available for people to work at home are created.  it's 2010, with VPN there is no reason why someone "on the sick" can't be at home, on a computer doing some form of work.  Of course training could be an issue, and there may well be people who are unable to do that kind of work, but there is always work that is available no matter what illness you have, well, within reason.  I'm "on the sick" and am basically unable to leave the house, so having a job like that would benefit me so very much, however, I'm unable to look for a job because I'd be forced to do any job they offer, even though I'm physically unable to do many normal tasks.
Criminal activity whilst on benefits?  Class criminal activity as "work", so any person who commits a crime is considered to be working and ineligible for benefits.
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Re: Criminal Justice

You are correct about the rent situation. My friend lives on an estate where virtually all are on benefits. She has seen a marked increase in the number of evictions due to non-payment of rent.
Doubtless this came about due to a) some misguided thinking on human rights b) the administration costing too much or c) Brussels waving the big stick.
With regard to coupons/tokens, illegal immigrants/asylum seekers used to be given these and there was a powerful left-wing lobby against their use.
The government conceded defeat and stopped them, I see no reason why this would not happen again if brought back in for the long-term unemployed.
Something urgently needs to be done about career benefit claimants, including young single girls who see pregnancy and childbirth as a license to make free use of everything the welfare state has to offer.
Unfortunately, I cannot believe that any of the major political parties would even try to tackle this as they would lose too many votes.
Community Veteran
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Re: Criminal Justice

But it has to be tackled Poppy.  We can't afford to continue handing out money to people who don't want to work.  What's wrong in getting people on benefits doing voluntary work.  At least they will be contributing something to society.