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Climate change

gleneagles
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Re: Climate change

@AlFox 

What some of our experts said stop smoking cigarettes and replace it with vaping......now we are hearing stories of some who did that have discovered to their cost that vaping is not the answer.

The first question I always ask when research is undertaken......who has funded it ( The company funding it, owns it and may not publish it) Second question how big is the sample and final question can others get the same or similar results when using the same method. ?

We are born into history and history is born into us.
AlFox
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Re: Climate change

Difficult to know where to start with your comment. The fact that cavemen had fires and... we are still here is irrelevant. And if you understand anthropomorphic climate change you would know that cavemen didn’t start it.
Progress doesn’t have to be associated with destroying the environment...
AlFox
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Re: Climate change

@gleneagles
Taking your points in order:
The expert advice was that vaping should be safer than smoking but that they didn’t know the long term effects. That’s still correct. Clearly ingesting any chemical into your lungs is not a good idea.

Completely agree with your second point.

Of course with climate change, as with most large scale issues, we can’t run a controlled experiment. What we have are trends which appear to obey the models. The longer it goes on, the more we have refined the models and the results are generally following what has been predicted. We are effectively carrying out an experiment on the whole world.

We don’t have a spare planet that we can use to see if we can replicate the effect...

The science has been around for quite a long time now, so it is quite annoying that people still contradict it based not on new evidence but on personal beliefs and citing others that have little knowledge. As I mentioned before, we had the same with MMR. I do rather wonder what proof some people will need.
shutter
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Re: Climate change

@AlFox   but you see... it IS relevant...  and , of course, you choose to ignore the fact, that.... today`s "global warming" fanatics, and "Climate Change professors" are saying that we should not be using the resources of the earth.. i.e. trees, and fossil fuels, ( coal gas oil, etc ) because they are causing global warming and climate change... and you say, that the cavement did not start global warming, or climate change.... well,  maybe not on the same scale as today... but... there were considerably less of them... BUT... they were still responsible for making the first fires, and producing heat, and thermal gasses to start destroying the world... all we are doing is, exactly the same thing... but on a larger scale..

pro rata increases, per population head of the world, is called PROGRESS... and no matter how much preaching the so called special scientists are, they will not stop it, either in their own lifetime or in the future life times.. it is totally pointless.

it will happen, regardless of the "expert opinion" 

How many of these so-called experts with their opinions, and the scientists who produce the "facts".. live in houses made from bricks, which used up valuable resources, and caused global warming, and use a car or bus or train, to get to work, using more valuable resources, and have gas or electric lighting/central heating... etc...  how many of them,have decided they can contribute a significant amount, to the slowing down of their doom and gloom reports, by not having those facilities for their families......have they given them up..... Nah..

.don`t even think about it.... just spout about it for everyone else to do it.

.the scientist. or the cave man.. both have the same objective in life,... to be comfortable and warm, and will do the same regardless. .

Hypocrites, the lot of them...

 

 

AlFox
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Re: Climate change

You appear to agree that climate change is happening, but unhappy that the people that are providing the evidence are not taking the corrective action. With that I agree.
But don’t shoot the messenger!
‘Increases’ are not necessarily progress! Increase in cancer survival might be, but an increase in infant mortality would not be.
Many people are looking at alternatives to fossil fuels, and changes to lifestyles. But many of these need a change to infrastructure and fiscal measures to make them viable; that’s why they are not an individual issue. Just like immunisation, smog reduction, child protection, defence etc etc.

It’s not ‘doom and gloom’ reports, it’s information and options.
Minivanman
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Re: Climate change

Not a climate change denier far from it but take those floods in Venice  (and correct me if I'm wrong) but isn't the place built on a lagoon. And that place neat Doncaster, what's it called again... err, Fishlake. 

Like Venice the place flooded a few years back but now we blame both on climate change by jumping on the environmental bandwagon? I do wonder, honestly I do.

Somerset another area beset with problems as well when it comes to flooding but folks seem to forget that the original meaning of the name was 'settlers by the sea'.

Somethings daft around here.

.... but just checked and where we are is just over 54m above sea level, so no worries. 😛


Don't limit the friends you haven't met with arguments you'll never have.
AlFox
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Re: Climate change

As you'll know, 'weather' is not the same as 'climate change'.

The events in Australia, California, Venice, France, England, etc. are all unusual, and consistent with the projected effects of climate change. But they are not proof.

It may be wrong to blame them on climate change, but it would not be incorrect to say they are consist with it.

Equally,if they are just isolated freak events, that doesn't disprove climate change.

What we need is some calm, informed debate and consistent action.

Minivanman
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Re: Climate change

Only after we are all up to our necks in water with a 40° sun beating down on the heads of those that have survived will you hear all in chorus.

All together now. 

I told you so!  

😂


Don't limit the friends you haven't met with arguments you'll never have.
TTman
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Re: Climate change

@AlFox  When I was young (many many years ago) the scientific opinion was that we were heading for an Ice Age as science has progressed we now are looking at Global Warming. So maybe that will change as science progresses further. Until then we have to run with what the scientists know now and if we cannot reverse it hope at the moment they are wrong.🤔

shutter
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Re: Climate change

@AlFox  Er.... not exactly the point I was making...

Yes. Climate Change/aka global warming is happening.... but... what the current "scaremongering" governments, scientists, experts, whatever name you give to them, are saying it is the "current generations" fault...and failing to acknowledge, ( as you are too, ) that Global warming started by ( and probably long before )  the cave men, cutting down trees ( removing the earths natural lungs- to give it a modern twist) and started making fire, burning those trees, polluting the atmosphere, then they found out they could cut more trees down, to make wheels, thus starting the transport revolution, leading to the modern car, buses, trains... etc.. so ... the progression started long before the scaremmongering governments, scientists, experts, etc.

AND... it will continue.... despite them... so... it is a pointless "exercise"..

billnotben
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Re: Climate change


@AlFox wrote:

What we need is some calm, informed debate


And who would debate? According to you not the likes of us but only "experts".

What does a so called expert do except give their opinion. An opinion based on an assortment of facts that are deemed as true at that time. But another expert sorting through the same assortment of facts can and often do come to a different conclusion.

So one expert says yay another nay to a particular subject. Now when I look at the details whatever they are and form my opinion I'm bound to agree with one expert or the other. How is my opinion worth any less than those "experts"?

In today's world most of us are no longer in awe of any so called experts. We are all capable of looking at the facts available and forming our own opinion. And  I'm sure many of us go even further and look at why is that person regarded as a so called expert in the first place. Often the answer to that is little more than they say they are..

AlFox
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Re: Climate change

Sorry to be a pendant but...

Forest fires started before man decided to warm him or herself. 

The earth's atmosphere could cope with a few wood fires as there a normal carbon cycle. This was in balance for millions of years until we started rapidly using fossil fuels (the key is in the name, these aren't trees that regrow in a few years). That's altered the balance. Just look out of your window (or go to a local town if you live in the countryside) and you can see fossil fuels, or the products made using them, being consumed all around. The real issue started during the industrial revolution (again the clue is in the name) which was based on coal (you know the history). It wasn't about us burning a few more trees.

It is the last few generations fault.

If we convert to renewable energy sources (again, the clue is in the name) then we should be able to reduce the emissions of COe and reduce the potential effects of man-made global warming. It doesn't require living in mud huts, but it does require fairly substantial changes. It is possible.

Of course it all started before "scientists, experts" etc knew about it, otherwise we might have done something about it before!

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/CarbonCycle

Moderator's note by Mike (Mav): Post released from Spam Filter.
AlFox
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Re: Climate change

If you read my earlier response, you'll have seen that I think debate is good. I'm just asking for informed debate.

Would you listen to an Oncologist if you were having cancer treatment, or to a plumber. Sure, three Oncologists might disagree on the details of the treatment because some things are complex and there are different solutions. But would you claim to be able to listen to the Oncologists and make an alternative judgement? [I'm assuming you are not an Oncologist!]

If you had 500 Oncologists agreeing on a form of treatment, and a Chemical Engineer suggesting something different, would you go with the Chemical Engineer?

Global Warming is not a case of one expert vs one another, It's the vast majority vs a few. Many of the naysayers have little or no knowledge of the subject and are just selecting bits of data and putting an argument round it.

"We are all capable of looking at the facts available and forming our own opinion" You are capable of forming your own opinion, but not necessarily of getting it right. We don't need experts if we can all understand everything. But I am happy to admit that there are multiple fields (not just Oncology) where I would need to rely on experts.

"Often the answer to that is little more than they say they are" In that case, ignore them. Listen to people that are qualified in their field, have studied it for years and debated it in scientific forums!

 

billnotben
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Re: Climate change

You're working entirely from the premise that a plumber knows nothing else apart from plumbing.

Saying a persons opinion is worthless just because they don't have the right label is wrong in so many ways.

I'm sure I can find an expert to agree with me.

wotsup
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Re: Climate change

Sea level rise has been happening for millenia - there have been remains of large forests found at the bottom of North Sea, with stone age tools scattered around,  and  we are still building on flood plains ( Dohhhh the clue is in the name ).  One large volcanic eruption can put more toxic gasses and debris into the atmosphere than we could in decades.  Pretty much all the historical data that scientists have on temperature of the planet is from tree rings,  and trees can grow faster for many reasons,  plants and trees ( and us ) need Co2 to grow,  NASA reports say planet is being greened by Co2 rise,  so that also means more crops and more oxygen from plants and algae - good news.

 

I lose track of the times that experts have been proven wrong and even the bloke that sweeps the factory floor said they were taking a load of rubbish all along .. Humans are not one trick ponies and compared to our brains the best computers are actually one trick ponies, and not very good ones at that,  the best thing I ever saw to describe computers was GIGO ( garbage in- Garbage out ) - and these models ( just like the treasury models are ) are programmed to give the required results - confirmation bias, call it what you will many people have vested interests.    as billnotben said - all these scientists travelling the world to climate summits on jet aircraft, often business jets,  staying in best hotels etc.  why don't theystay at home and hold conferences by video link if they really worry about emissions and fossil fuels - I think they quite enjoy their fame and the jet-setting lifestyle and are protecting that - not the planet....