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Cheating at Brexit

Anonymous
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Re: Cheating at Brexit

You are to be commended for a valiant attempt at squirrelling @Minivanman , but women only shortlists and single transferable votes have absolutely nothing to do with the alleged illegal activity by the leave side in the referendum campaign.

I will be interested to see how the emergency debate in Parliament goes when it starts shortly!

Anonymous
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Re: Cheating at Brexit


@Jonpe wrote:

we'll remain in all but name.


I live in hope Wink

rongtw
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Re: Cheating at Brexit

Anyhow , Meanwhile Orange Trupton says <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<   FAKE NEWS Cheesy

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Jonpe
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Re: Cheating at Brexit

STV (on which we had a referendum resulting in a No vote) is not really proportional representation, it gives victory to the least unpopular candidate rather than the most popular one and is only used in Australia.

Proper proportional representation would give a party with, say, 12% of the vote 12% of the seats in Parliament.  In 2010 UKIP got just under 920,000 votes but no MPs whilst the Alliance Party in Northern Ireland (where they have PR) got an MP with less than 43,000 votes.  We can't possibly argue that this is democratic.

Minivanman
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Re: Cheating at Brexit

@Jonpe

"I don't know anyone, Remain or Leave voters, who hadn't decided how to vote in the referendum long before the campaigning started.  The media hype and the literature provided by the political parties and the government were all in favour or remaining, yet the majority voted Leave."

Indeed, which would suggest that despite all hype and what have you, it was predetermined.

Certainly the older generation voted for it and as is often the case, they also bothered to exercise their democratic right and y'know what, the more the media and politicians tells us to do one thing the more likely we are to do the other!

We might be daft but we are not stupid. Crazy2

Minivanman
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Re: Cheating at Brexit

@Anonymous

Squirrelling? That's not a term I'm familiar with but anyway, I was just trying to point out how variable and wrong the voting system can be. 

It's all politics innit Thumbs Up

Anonymous
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Re: Cheating at Brexit


@Minivanman wrote:

@Anonymous

Squirrelling? That's not a term I'm familiar with


As in ‘oh look, a squirrel!’ An attempt to distract by pointing out something entirely irrelevant.

 

 

Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Cheating at Brexit


@Minivanman 

@Jonpe

"I don't know anyone, Remain or Leave voters, who hadn't decided how to vote in the referendum long before the campaigning started. 

Surely it is a basic tenet of any reasoned argument that the specific does not prove the general. Just because you don’t know anyone who had their voting intention changed by the campaigns does not mean that those people don’t exist.

The referendum result was so close that it was, in the end, decided by about 600,000 people. Only today in the select committee hearing, it has been accepted that the work by Cambridge Analytica / AIQ was probably significant enough to have swayed the result.

Minivanman
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Re: Cheating at Brexit

Well it is what it is and we'll be going forward with what we have even if it does turn out to be a watered down version. Once out we can trim any future relationship with the EU to suit ourselves and each other. 

The fat lady is still singing Wink

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Re: Cheating at Brexit

It is said that many older people are resistant to change whilst the younger generation want change.

The outcome in this case seems to turn that idea on it's head.

I wonder why ?

Older and wiser no doubt.

Wink

Anonymous
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Re: Cheating at Brexit


@gleneagles wrote:

 

Older and wiser no doubt.

Wink


Either that or senility... Grin

Luzern
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Re: Cheating at Brexit


@Jonpe wrote:

STV (on which we had a referendum resulting in a No vote) is not really proportional representation, it gives victory to the least unpopular candidate rather than the most popular one and is only used in Australia.

Proper proportional representation would give a party with, say, 12% of the vote 12% of the seats in Parliament.  In 2010 UKIP got just under 920,000 votes but no MPs whilst the Alliance Party in Northern Ireland (where they have PR) got an MP with less than 43,000 votes.  We can't possibly argue that this is democratic.


IMO the problem with PR is its divorce from local representation. In such a system, who do I go to in respect of local problems. OTOH in a constituency like mine. were I on the left, I could be reluctant to petition my truer than true blue MP.

IMO we need a sophisticated system that allows for local representation and then adjusts the overall membership to near the national proportions of votes.

 

No one has to agree with my opinion, but in the time I have left a miracle would be nice.
Luzern
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Re: Cheating at Brexit


@Jonpe wrote:

I don't know anyone, Remain or Leave voters, who hadn't decided how to vote in the referendum long before the campaigning started.  The media hype and the literature provided by the political parties and the government were all in favour or remaining, yet the majority voted Leave.

It now looks like what we suspected is happening, i.e. we'll remain in all but name.


@Jonpe of course you are right, but not I think 100%. So much in elections depends on the marginal constituencies, and these attract the major attention of the parties. I think the close result of the referendum does nothing to belie the power of marginal voters.

No one has to agree with my opinion, but in the time I have left a miracle would be nice.
Anonymous
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Re: Cheating at Brexit

@Luzern

@Jonpe

And your thoughts on the thread’s topic? 

Luzern
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Re: Cheating at Brexit

@Anonymous My thoughts are somewhat conflicted. The topic is a worthy one, and if either side has cheated  to an extent that the result is  skewed that the nation's real choice is to remain, then the perpetrators must feel the force of law, and theoretically the referendum re-run. Parliament too should theoretically abandon the process.

However, IMO, the result of such actions could lead to even more acrimony and division, eve to a dangerous level. That scares me, maybe more than departure on a false result.

No one has to agree with my opinion, but in the time I have left a miracle would be nice.