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BREXIT

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Aspiring Pro
Posts: 737
Thanks: 81
Registered: ‎16-01-2011

Re: BREXIT


@VileReynard wrote:

 

We couldn't go by tunnel or ferry because they'll be choked with goods of vital national interest (such as food).


Talking of ferries or ferry companies with no ferries Private Eye is reporting Seaborne Freight doesn't have any funds to pay for a ferry.

One possibility was a fund Albany Shipping set up by Seaborne Freight's CEO Ben Sharp, whose website states its a fund in the UK for the purpose of purchasing offshore vessels.  It's based in Gibraltar and managed in London by Flexagon Capital Solutions. But, Flexagon's boss told Private Eye the fund has "never raised a pound" and was dormant.

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Pro
Posts: 1,126
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Registered: ‎03-12-2016

Re: BREXIT


@VileReynard wrote:

So after Brexit, does this mean that we have to fly to Switzerland (because its not an EU member), leave by the Swiss door and queue up at the French door to get into France?

Of course not. Don't be silly

 

Boris and Liam and Dominic and David and their pals promised us all the benefits, none of the cost PLUS PLUS.

In fact we will just be able to walk through the red carpet isle set up for us Brits the world over, just as they promised

 

Thats what they promised

Thats what we voted for

Else thered have been no point in voting leave now would there?

 

Ticked_off

and We'd better GET what we voted for - ALL of the benefits NONE of the cost PLUS more and more and certainly NONE of the downsides those darn remainers whinged on about ........ hadn't we ...

How far away is bonfire night ?

 

 

 

Show us ONE just ONE real, defined benefit for the British public from Brexit

Brexit Promised cake .... But just delivers a stream of Cack
... and expects us all to just swallow it
Brexit - Built from Bovine Manure by Bots
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Hero
Posts: 4,706
Thanks: 870
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Registered: ‎31-07-2007

Re: BREXIT


@Jonpe wrote:

I know Geneva airport straddles the border, but I didn't know they had two such truly international airports.  I understand that on landing in Geneva one turns one way for Swiss immigration and the other way for French.  Car hire is/was cheaper in one country so passengers would choose to go through the immigration channel for that country, hire a car and drive to the other country if that was their intended destination.

Why do they think we are crazy for wanting something similar to what they are very happy with?


@JonpeWhen they have visited Switzerland on one family visit, it was quite 'interesting' returning a hire car to the wrong desk, and getting back to the correct air check-in.

But do Brexiters want the same as the Swiss are happy with? I am not sure they do- the agenda holding, the Kansas, the stupidly unthinking parrots especially.

No one has to agree with my opinion, but in the time I have left a miracle would be nice.
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Hero
Posts: 3,138
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Registered: ‎05-09-2016

Re: BREXIT

I don't understand your last sentence.

Perhaps we should remember that referendums play a much larger part in Swiss politics than they do in other European countries, and I don't think they are "merely advisory" either.

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Hero
Posts: 4,706
Thanks: 870
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Registered: ‎31-07-2007

Re: BREXIT

My last post edited to add ' especially'.

No one has to agree with my opinion, but in the time I have left a miracle would be nice.
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Aspiring Pro
Posts: 737
Thanks: 81
Registered: ‎16-01-2011

Re: BREXIT

What a told shambles.....the Conservative party & DUP unites to send the Prime Minister back to Brussels to get rid of the 'Backstop' and replace with "alternative arrangements to avoid a hard border" but no one knows what arrangements.

Yet this morning Liz Truss this morning claimed the Prime Minister will go to Brussels able to tell them what MPs actually want rather than what they don't want....huh?

 

There is a suggestion the Prime Minister will pick up the 'Malthouse compromise', which wasn't discussed or voted on in the House of Commons.

 

The ERG talks tough but time and again they back down, this looks like another example of wanting to find a way to backtrack and the same can be said of the DUP.

 

 

What if the Prime Minister merely returns with the word 'backstop' replaced by the words 'safety net'?

All the Prime Minister has agreed to is re-negotiate the Backstop, let's say she gets what MPs think they voted for....David Davis & Boris Johnson resigned long before the backstop was finalised. That's why I say the 'backstop' is being used by the ERG & DUP to backtrack.

 

Part of David Davis's letter of resignation....

In my view the inevitable consequence of the proposed policies will be to make the supposed control by Parliament illusory rather than real. As I said at Cabinet the "common rule book" policy hands control of large swatches of our economy to the EU and is certainly not returning control of our laws in any real sense.   

 

Boris Johnson's resignation letter does not even mention Northern Ireland & the border.

We are now in the ludicrous position of asserting that we must accept huge amounts of precisely such EU law, without changing an iota, because it is essential for our economic health - and when we no longer have any ability to influence these laws as they are made.

In that respect we are truly headed for the status of colony - and many will struggle to see the economic or political advantages of that particular arrangement.

It is also clear that by surrendering control over our rulebook for goods and agrifoods (and much else besides) we will make it much more difficult to do free trade deals...

 

Last night Boris was all smiles as if he'd won a victory but, nothing has changed regarding his objections to the current deal. Looks like Boris is admitting the Brexit he claims people voted for can't be delivered.  
 

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Aspiring Pro
Posts: 737
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Registered: ‎16-01-2011

Re: BREXIT

There has been much talk about democracy but I didn't realize many votes in the House of Commons are meaningless because they are not binding on the government.

Only Yvette Coopers amendments would have been binding on the government. 

Before the vote the government had agreed to go back to Brussels and negotiate an alternative to the Backstop. Of the Spelman amendment (not to the leave the EU without a deal) supported by Parliament appears to have been ignored?

All the talk about taking back control and Parliament being sovereign is deluded and I'm convinced more than ever all the referendum sovereignty talk was bilge.   

 

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Pro
Posts: 1,126
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Registered: ‎03-12-2016

Re: BREXIT

@all those looking for logic in the shenanigans

 

The logic is that the UK crashes out of the EU and then wakes up to April Fools day whether a Parliamentary motion, binding or otherwise says No hard Brexit or not.

That is one of the few things that IS binding in UK law.

 

Its just the Hard Brexiters running the clock out to a default hard Brexit and the Bonfire of regulations the hard brexiters want.

Any deal with the EU will require protection of workers rights and environmental protections - so the Brexiters want no deal.

 

The ONLY two things that can stop that are:

1 A fresh agreement AGREED with the EU and passed into UK law before leaving (includes agreeing extension)

2. Revoking article 50 and staying in the EU on our existing (for now) terms (the real best deal)

 

Only option 2 can be done unilaterally by the UK.

 

Any form of 1. requires an agreement with and by the EU 27 and UK parliament - thats after the UK parliament has agreed it,

and the UK parliament with have to agree it AGAIN AFTER the EU has agreed it  - so VERY unlikely

 

Other than that, the default is crash out in a few weeks time

 

 

 

Show us ONE just ONE real, defined benefit for the British public from Brexit

Brexit Promised cake .... But just delivers a stream of Cack
... and expects us all to just swallow it
Brexit - Built from Bovine Manure by Bots
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Hero
Posts: 3,138
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Registered: ‎05-09-2016

Re: BREXIT

Do we need the EU to protect our workers and our environment?  Macron is threatening his workers with chemical attack if they don't stop demonstrating, and we had workers' rights long before we joined the EU.  If our government does something we disapprove of, we don't vote for them next time - simple as that!  And a country of a little more than half a million people like Luxembourg won't be able to veto what our 'democratically' elected government wants to do.

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Aspiring Hero
Posts: 12,448
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Registered: ‎01-09-2007

Re: BREXIT

The EU  has forced the UK to improve our environment & workers conditions on many occasions.

e.g. Improvements to polluted beaches when we used to pump raw sewage just offshore, polluted air in our cities, the EU Working Time Directive...

etc

"In The Beginning Was The Word, And The Word Was Aardvark."

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Pro
Posts: 1,126
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Registered: ‎03-12-2016

Re: BREXIT

Oh and it isnt the EU 27 thats the issue - they are largely one voice

 

Its:

 

The 5+ main Tory factions

* Leave with nothing but a Rights and regs bonfire on a fracked gas cooker

* Leave on WTO (not even close to what its sold as and is different to the above)

* Leave with a transition and negotiate some half out fantasy pick and chose cake and eat it future deal (still worse than the one we have) despite failing so far  (cant be bothered to break this faction down any further into Norway++ Canada++ Mays deal++ whatever++) actually at least 3 or 4 sub factions in this lot  

* Remain

* Not Corbyn (the trump card that over-rules the others, so confuses things even more)

 

 

The 6+ Labour factions

* Leave with nothing but a Rights and regs bonfire on a fracked gas cooker

* Leave with nothing but a EU regs bonfire on a wood burning stove and try to tax the rich before they leg it with the money

* Leave on WTO (not even close to what its sold as and is different to the above)

* Leave with a transition and negotiate some half in fantasy pick and chose cake and eat it future deal (still worse than the one we have) despite failing so far (cant be bothered to break this faction down any further into Norway++ Canada++ Corbyn++ whatever++) actually at least 3 or 4 sub factions in this lot  

* Remain

* Corbyn (whatever it is he actually wants? seriously complicates all the others)

 

 Of course the vast majority in the like minded divisions in the two main parties wouldn't dream of working together cross party. They would rather slit their own wrists, and consider the few that do traitors of the lowest kind

- so cant be counted together.

 

The 4 (halved to 2) Scottish Government factions as they do seem to be concentrating most on the issue at hand

* Remain (in the UK)  + Leave (the EU)*

* Remain + Remain

* Leave and Leave

* Leave (the UK) and Remain (in the EU)

 

The 2 Welsh Factions

Must admit I'm not so sure on them. They've been doing some weird stuff - so we'll call that just 2

 

We'll count the DUP as one as they do vote together

 

Lib dems and Greens are remain and will work cross party - the treacherous democratic  ****£$%""££

Betrayers of the UK parliaments paramount unwritten rules of - First self, then Party, then go to the bar, then nothing. 

But as they are just remain - we dont have to count them at all,  just like all the Remain voters and the ex pats and the younger folk who could now vote and who have the most to lose but who didn't get to vote)

 

 

So its not the EU27 thats the problem

It's the 16+ UK factions that are the issue

 

 

But all that is besides the point.

Without positive action WAAAY beyond ANY Parliamentary motion binding or otherwise from the UK Parliament and government (as clarified in the article immediately above) , the default is crash out Hard Brexit in March.

 

Show us ONE just ONE real, defined benefit for the British public from Brexit

Brexit Promised cake .... But just delivers a stream of Cack
... and expects us all to just swallow it
Brexit - Built from Bovine Manure by Bots
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Pro
Posts: 1,126
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Registered: ‎03-12-2016

Re: BREXIT

Ok

After simplifying as far as possible

What the default is and what can change it and that all the motions etc are nothing as they stand

 

Lets get right to the core nugget of truth

 

There were two options on the Referendum paper, leave + Remain:

 

What was remain sold as?

* Remaining in the EU

- and those who voted Remain would have and for a short while still would get what was sold to them

 

What was Brexit sold as (by those who have been driving the Brexit process)

* All the EU benefits, None of the costs

* Trade deals queuing up from around the world far larger than the EU

* Easiest quickest deal in history, we hold all the cards. Sorted long before exit date

- Well the people that voted for those aren't going to get them are they?

 

 

So EVERYONE has been cheated.

Hard Brexit doesn't deliver

Mays Brexit doesn't deliver

Corbysn Brexit wont deliver

WTO, Canada++ Norway++ doesn't deliver

 

Even Remain doesn't deliver what the Brexit voters were promised - but it is the nearest

 

 

Show us ONE just ONE real, defined benefit for the British public from Brexit

Brexit Promised cake .... But just delivers a stream of Cack
... and expects us all to just swallow it
Brexit - Built from Bovine Manure by Bots
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Rising Star
Posts: 112
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Registered: ‎19-12-2013

Re: BREXIT

To use the phrase 'crash out' is highly inaccurate.  The legislation already passed through Parliament has transferred all existing EU regulations into UK law.  That means that the moment the UK leaves with 'no deal' then - everything is the same!  All the laws protecting 'workers rights' (actually employment legislation protects the rights of both employees and employers) and the environment will be exactly the same as they were the day before. What will change, is that Parliament, should it so choose, would be able to change any of those laws, as it sees fit, without having to go through trying to persuade umpteen other countries to do it our preferred way. 

Those who voted 'Leave' wanted just that ability to make our own laws, and run our own country. A default to WTO, with a standalone capability to make our own laws, and run the country the way we wish is exactly what 'Leave' voters wanted. 

Those who voted 'remain' quite possibly didn't know what they were voting for. They may have been voting for a 'status quo' that was not on offer.  The EU is committed to 'ever closer union' and has a declared target of a federal union. I think it was Nick Clegg that denied in rather strong terms that a 'European Army' was in the pipeline, and yet it is now a nascent body.  

Any economic argument for or against Brexit is a side issue.  Business will adapt to the circumstances it finds itself in. That is what it is good at. Brexit is about restoring decision making to the electorate of the UK.   

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Aspiring Pro
Posts: 737
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Registered: ‎16-01-2011

Re: BREXIT


@Jonpe wrote:

Do we need the EU to protect our workers and our environment? .


It looks like it.....the Working Time Directive tends to be a prime target of pro Brexit politicians...

In 2012 Liam Fox complained about the Working Time Directive, the EU pollution directives and the Data Protection directive, making it clear they should go.

 

In 2017 Michael Gove & Boris Johnson tried to persuade government to slash away at the Working Time Directive, Liam Fox called it a burden...

The spool of red tape they want to slash is known as the EU Working Time Directive (EWTD). It demands employees work no longer than 48 hours and grants them at least four weeks of paid leave, among other benefits.

Seeing off the directive has been a longstanding ambition of the Brexiteers in Theresa May's cabinet

Did the paper deliberately get it wrong to mislead their readers?

 

Government website

You can choose to work more than 48 hours a week on average if you’re over 18. This is called ‘opting out’.

Your employer can ask you to opt out, but you can’t be sacked or treated unfairly for refusing to do so. 

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Pro
Posts: 1,126
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Registered: ‎03-12-2016

Re: BREXIT


@JPN wrote:

To use the phrase 'crash out' is highly inaccurate.


 

On the contrary - its highly accurate or an understatement

Loosing access to port, airspace, financial markets, most  trade with the EU AND EU negotiated deals we currently use and with no plans other than relying on good will to continue, which good will we are burning at a high rate with our shenanigans

... in fact train wreck might be better.

 

Ask why hundreds of UK financial institutions ARE moving their main bodies to Amsterdam, Paris and Eire

Ask why UK ferries ARE re-registering in Cyprus

Ask why airbus IS making emergency plans to move out of the UK

Ask why the Army IS stockpiling weapons and supplies

Ask why Motorways ARE being (incompetently) set up as Lorry Parks

Ask why the car manufacturers have moved their shutdowns to Brexit week.

 

Doesn't sound in any way properly managed or planned to me

 

and before you blame the businesses (who aren't moving to the EU - How can they plan for undefined whatever?

 

 

@@@@christmas has given you some good examples refuting your assertion regarding rights, you should also look to see why the EU withdrawal bill is called 'The great REPEAL' 

with between 800 and 1,000 statutory instruments expected, with MPs to be offered a vote on only some of them.

 

Also ask the Government why the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights will NOT be incorporated into UK law if they have their way.

 

What possible issue can they have with:

the right to life,

the ban on torture,

protection against slavery,

the right to a fair trial,

respect for privacy,

freedom of thought and religion,

free speech and peaceful protest?

 

Show us ONE just ONE real, defined benefit for the British public from Brexit

Brexit Promised cake .... But just delivers a stream of Cack
... and expects us all to just swallow it
Brexit - Built from Bovine Manure by Bots