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BREXIT

christmas
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Re: BREXIT


@wotsup wrote:

...... the brexit minister ( David Davis and later Dominic Raab ) were just a figurehead to give negotiations a bit of respectability. 


What are admitting is that David Davis & Dominic Rabb were rubbish Ministers, who didn't stamp their authority on their department.

David Davis was an ill informed waste of space of his own making without the assistance of Civil Servants. Here's an example from 2016

 I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners. I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months.

...within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete... That means that foreign direct investment by companies keen to take advantage of these deals will grow in the next two years.

Recall he delayed triggering Article 50 to create impact assessments and develop a negotiating strategy....he had to admit those 50+ assessments did not exist, that's why he turned up empty handed at the EU negotiations.

Davis promised the 'row of the Summer' if Barnier didn't agree to discuss a trade deal at the same time as the exit arrangements, in less than 90 minutes of direct negotiations Davis rolled over and accepted Barniers sequence of discussions.

If as you claim a civil servant was in control then Davis should have made his concerns known after that first meeting and resigned. Recall how at a press conference Davis claimed there had been good progress and much agreed, for Barnier to point out little progress had been made, Davis didn't refute what Barnier said, and Barnier produced a traffic light summary indicating what had or not been agreed.

If Davis felt he was being undermined by civil servants then he could have insisted he be present, the problem appears to have been his lack of appearance at the negotiations.

What is funny is that Davis agreed to accept the Chequers plan but two days later changed his mind, similarly Dominic Rabb agreed to accept the negotiated deal but changed his mind the next day.

It's funny how they can change their minds but the public are not allowed to change theirs, despite Brexit not panning how David Davis chums said it would.        

 

 

christmas
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Re: BREXIT


@wotsup wrote:

@christmas

I said ( as did the article ) that they were top EU lawyers...

 

 


Do you know these lawyers personally how do you know they are top EU lawyers and if they are would they not be prejudiced in favour of the EU because that's where they earn their money?

Are they Article 50 specialists, what has been their legal involvement in other EU members triggering Article 50?

I assume the government employed 'top' lawyers who advised them they could trigger Article 50 without reference to Parliament, but they were wrong.

 

wotsup
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Re: BREXIT


@christmas wrote:

@wotsup wrote:

@christmas

I said ( as did the article ) that they were top EU lawyers...

 

 


Do you know these laws personally how do you know they are top EU lawyers and if they are would they not be prejudiced in favour of the EU because that's where they earn their money?

Are they Article 50 specialists, what has been their legal involvement in other EU members triggering Article 50?

I assume the government employed 'top' lawyers who advised them they could trigger Article 50 without reference to Parliament, but they were wrong.

 


When the Financial Times publishes an article I am in no position to argue with it, and I guess neither are you. No other country ( as you well know ) has triggered article 50, which was never expected to be used ( such is the hubris of the EU ). All legal opinions are just that, an opinion.....( that is why they are called opinions ). 

wotsup
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Re: BREXIT

There were parallel negotiations going on, the visible ones and the hidden ones by oily Robbins and his department, protected by Theresa May. The Brexit ministers found themselves in impossible positions, mainly due to the duplicity of TM, which has now been exposed due to publication of the governments legal advice, which is the way democracy should work. Tony B Liar would not publish legal advice on Iraq invasion, mainly because he does not understand democracy...He also pardoned hundreds of IRA killers to get his good Friday codge through, while continuing to hound British soldiers ( many well into their 70s now ). 

 

Nobody knows how brexit will pan out, there are tremendous opportunities outside the EU,  but if people like you keep pulling the rug it makes everything so much harder. The EU is a protectionist bloc and a political construct designed to centralize power away from members..

Moderator's note by Dick (Strat): Insult(s) removed as per Forum rules.

christmas
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Re: BREXIT

Blimey Jacob Rees Moggs mates the Economists for Brexit are saying.....A no-deal Brexit could cause energy prices to skyrocket.

That should help launch the UK sat-nav project.

Meanwhile

Growth in the UK's key services sector has hit its lowest level since July 2016, prompting fears of stagnation.

The purchasing managers' index (PMI) from IHS Markit/CIPS sank to 50.4 in November, down from 52.2 in October. A figure above 50 indicates expansion.

And apparently the other day Jacob Rees Mogg's close friend Patrick Minford said Brexit provides the opportunity to get out of manufacturing.

 

 

VileReynard
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Re: BREXIT

If a no-deal Brexit happens, we'll all be forced to go to Northern Ireland and smuggle 'stuff' from the Republic if we want to carry on eating.

At least there won't be a hard border. Cheesy

"In The Beginning Was The Word, And The Word Was Aardvark."

christmas
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Re: BREXIT


@wotsup wrote:

When the Financial Times publishes an article I am in no position to argue with it.....All legal opinions are just that, an opinion.....( that is why they are called opinions ). 


As far as I am aware the FT is not a legal institution and is merely expressing their opinion they are top EU lawyers. You don't even seem to know if they are top EU lawyers yet in your original message (774) you stated as fact they are top EU lawyers.

I can understand why you wish to use the description top EU lawyers so that if the ECJ rules the UK can unilaterally withdraw Article 50 you can come online champing at the bit that the decision was politically motivated as it ignored the top EU legal brains.

For all you know they could be the same lawyers who advised the UK government on the triggering of Article 50, and got it wrong. They could be top EU lawyers who specialize in the laws regarding whether a banana is straight or as bent as a cucumber. Smiley  

christmas
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Re: BREXIT


@wotsup wrote:

There were parallel negotiations going on, the visible ones and the hidden ones.....

 

Nobody knows how brexit will pan out, there are tremendous opportunities outside the EU...


There were negotiations so well hidden that you, a member of the public, knew about them.

Your argument is so weak you are regularly reduced to name calling and insulting people when your opinion is challenged.

If the opportunities outside the EU are so great then companies would have been fully backing a no deal Brexit, the evidence is they are not.

If signing free trade deals is seen as positive then giving up a full embracing frictionless, tariff free trade arrangement with our largest trading partner must be negative.

Even ardent pro Brexit campaigners accept the UK public will take a financial hit, during the Referendum they said the economy would be damaged for around 5 years, once they got the votes they are now talking about 15 - 20 years.

Just before becoming Leave the EU Minister wrote...

The great British industrial working classes voted overwhelmingly for Brexit.   

Throughout the referendum people said Leaving the EU would provide the opportunity to rebalance the economy towards manufacturing...BUT Jacob Rees Mogg's favourite economist Patrick Minford has reportedly repeated his claim that leaving the EU will provide the opportunity to ditch manufacturing. 

Did the "great industrial working classes" vote to leave the EU, to lose their jobs? 

As to undermining the negotiations, it was pro Brexit Boris Johnson who whilst a Minister regularly pulled the rug from under the Prime Minister at key moments and has continued to do so outside government.

It's been the extremely pro-Brexit MP Jacob Rees Mogg alongside side Steve Baker who worked tirelessly to weaken the Prime Minister's position.

 

wotsup
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Re: BREXIT

The parallel negotiations only became public when David Davis thought his proposal was the only one on the table and then Oily Robbins at chequers ( with the collusion of TM ) went Ta-Dah, pulled his cloak aside and lo and behold there was another 'deal' that had been negotiated by Robbins et al - that was when DD resigned.  Too much interference behind the scenes from civil servants who are worried about increasing workload that independence from EU will cause, up until now ( in living memeory of most of them ) all they have had to do is accept EU diktats,  and when the mood takes them 'gold plate ' them.

 

No one knows what freedom from EU will bring,  but it seems that some people are up for it,  others are like the battery hens that when the door was opened and they could see light and freedom outside 52% went outside to enjoy the fresh air and light but 48% stayed inside, ( too timid and risk averse and snug in their smug belief that there was no life outside the confines of their battery,  which was all a lot of them had ever known and become conditioned to ), to make the jump. Not only did 48% stay inside they petitioned the farmer not only to close the door again,  but to make sure all the other 52% were pushed back inside the battery cages before the door was closed again.

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Re: BREXIT

@wotsup Yes you are right in your comment. DD clearly said there were negotiations going on which he was not involved in. Furthermore Raab made similar comments when he resigned.

 

I like your analogy in your second paragraph. I voted to remain but once the referendum result went against me I had to accept it. That's democracy. I do not necessarily agree with the way we've gone about it though. We've made a hash of it IMO.

.

wotsup
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Re: BREXIT

The main point remainers make is 'not everyone voted to leave, and there needs to be compromises made in brexit for those who voted to remain' - not everyone voted to join in 1975 ( or actually to remain, as we had already been taken in illegally in 1972 by Ted Heath ) the argument was that a majority voted to remain and that was it - full speed ahead.  Fast forward to 2016-> and that argument is now being stood on its head.   but absolutely no compromise was visible in 1975 onwards ( we still signed up to every treaty, although we never had any referenda on any subsequent treaties some countries did and  'failed to get the right answer' first time in some of the treaty referenda and were asked to vote again ),  

 

There are a lot of parties ( Stand up SNP and labour and libdums (what is left of them) ) that are using Brexit as an opportunity for political mischief,  and even though their constituency voted leave, they take remain side in parliament - this is simply not acceptable ) - over 400 'constituencies' voted to leave, so if the referendum had been an election the leave side would have had a pretty good victory -   over 80% of votes in 2017 general election went to parties with 'respect the referendum result' in their manifesto, so for a party like labour to now renage on that is beyond the pale...

christmas
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Re: BREXIT

Liam Fox appears to have changed his position, the question is, why?

In July 2017 Philip Hammond said the transition period would last for years but Liam Fox said it would be only require a few weeks he later amended that to a few months.

Last week Liam Fox gave his support to the current deal despite having a backs stop that the UK will not be able to get out unilaterally, what has changed Fox's mind? Is it that he expects any trade deals to take longer than he originally thought? 

Throw in what Theresa May claimed this morning about the back stop, that has to be a major issue for Liam Fox and other Brexit Ministers. 

christmas
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Re: BREXIT


@artmo wrote:

@wotsup Yes you are right in your comment. DD clearly said there were negotiations going on which he was not involved in.

 

.

 


Did he? As I've indicated what Mr Davis says and claims can be taken with a large dose of Epsom salts.

He accused the EU of putting stories that he was lazy, but it was his own former chief of staff that described him as lazy who only works 3 days a week.

 

The meetings were sooooo secret the Times reported in December 2017 Oliver Robbins was dealing directly with Michel Barnier as well as Sabine Weyand, his opposite number in the European Commission.

DEXEU (Mr Davis) denied he had been sidelined and the meetings were part of ongoing discussions.

David Davis said of his resignation that it was a warning to Brussels and would help Brexiteers steer Theresa May towards a harder Brexit...

David Davis is full of himself, eager to claim he did this or that, when the evidence is he was ill informed and not up to the job....I repeat what he wrote just before he became the Minister for Closing Doors.....

 I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners. I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months.

 

There's a suggestion when it came the negotiations Davis was playing his own game rather than what had been agreed in cabinet. You saw after the first round of negotiations what he claimed about progress did not match the documents he personally agreed.

I remind people of his false claims about the analysis & impact of Brexit he was carrying out before triggering Article 50, all he produced was newspaper clippings.    

  

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christmas
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Re: BREXIT


@wotsup wrote:

 

 

No one knows what freedom from EU will bring,  but it seems that some people are up for it....


...like Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Imagine a general election where a candidate says I've got this plan to stop or restrict our trade with 65% of our trading partners which will damage the economy for many years to come, GDP growth will be lower than it would have been, we'll spend billions of pounds to reduce revenue, putting more financial pressure on public services.

The candidate goes on to say I haven't a clue what the outcome will be but it gives us the opportunity to sign new trade deals that cannot match the financial losses made by leaving the EU.

What is not to like with such clear clarity & certainty. 

 

wotsup
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Re: BREXIT

https://billetheridge.co.uk/_webedit/uploaded-files/All%20Files/Trade/EFDD%20trade%20pamphlet%20new%...

 

The truth about real cost of UK membership of EU.

 

The truth is the EU share of world trade is shrinking year on year, it is stagnating and 95% of future growth will be outside Eurozone... we do not want to be tied to a 'shrinking' ship...

 

 

Also, although only 8% of UK businesses export to EU,  100% have to abide EU directives, adding costs to their business. 

 

Most businesses report that amount of paperwork and problems exporting to non EU countries is about the same as to EU, it is big business pushing to remain in EU,  they have their own agenda.