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Afghanistan - more killed.

Community Veteran
Posts: 18,544
Thanks: 190
Registered: 12-08-2007

Afghanistan - more killed.

It was sad to see on the news tonight the five bodies being returned to the UK having been killed on duty in Afghanistan.  Also tonight there has been a further five soldiers killed bringing the total to 184.  Our thoughts go out to their families.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8145603.stm
I was concerned to hear today the remarks from General Lord Guthrie.  He said some lives could have been saved had our troops been properly equipped and more manpower deployed.  Why aren't we listening to the experts?  Our troops need our full backing whilst doing such a dangerous job.
43 REPLIES
Euge
Grafter
Posts: 502
Registered: 11-10-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

Either we fund them better or they pull out completely, not this half arsed half cooked American led carp.
Community Veteran
Posts: 16,825
Thanks: 1,115
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Registered: 06-11-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

I have sympathy for the bereaved families, of the soldiers who have been killed in Afghanistan, or indeed, anywhere else in the world, where "we" consider we are "doing the right thing".
I am also concerned that the government is not giving the M.O.D. the funds to equip our armed forces, to do the job properly. The news report on ITV tonight reported that Tony Blair, promised the commanders that he would give them the equipment they needed.... he failed, and did not keep his promise. (I do not know if the present prime minister has also given this promise)
All persons, who join the armed services, be it Royal Navy, Royal Air Force, or the Army, ( and include in that the sub departments) are aware that they may get killed .....
unfortunately, that is what war is about..... killing people....
It is not "heroic", nobody joins up to be a "hero"...
they join up for many and varied reasons.  The point is, that in any "civilian" job, there is the "health and safety executive" to "look after the troops" (builders,roadmenders,electricians, crane drivers... etc.... ) in fact anyone in any job, is now subject to the regulations.
If the "management" or "chief executive" does not ensure the H&S regs are followed, and someone gets killed because he wasn`t wearing a safety harness/gas tight suit/etc.or the safety equipment was not in fact available,or substandard, they can be heavily fined, or possibly imprisoned......
Makes you wonder how the government get away with it?
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,486
Registered: 02-10-2008

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

Of course - no one likes to hear that members of our armed forces have died, but unfortunately - that is war - so why all this fuss in the media?.
The  majority of people in the forces that I have spoken to actually want to go out and be part of a real campaign - in fact some in the infantry  regiments and the Royal Marines moan when they have to stay at home in barracks.
But I agree - government for decades has not provided the equipment that they need either in the right quantity or quality.
itsme
Grafter
Posts: 5,924
Thanks: 1
Registered: 07-04-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

If you join the armed forces then you should be aware that you could get killed. I wonder how the fatalities statistics compare with other industries?
Quote
In agriculture there were 26 fatal injuries in 2008/09 with a corresponding rate of 5.7 deaths per 100 000 workers. This compares to a rate of 9.9 when an average of the previous five years is examined.
In construction there were 53 fatal injuries, with a rate of 2.4 deaths per 100 000 workers. An average of the previous five years shows a rate of 3.4. There is an overall downward trend in the rate of fatal injury to workers in this sector.
In manufacturing there were 32 deaths and the rate of fatal injury was 1.1 per 100 000 workers, the same as the average rate for the previous five years.

In the services sector there were 63 fatalities, and the rate of fatal injury in 2008/09 is the same as the average rate for the previous five years (0.3).
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,486
Registered: 02-10-2008

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

Like farming - or deep sea fishing, both seem to have high accident rates
and road deaths - how many professional drivers killed a year.
Community Veteran
Posts: 18,544
Thanks: 190
Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

The figures from itsme obviously don't include many of the 184 deaths in Afghanistan.  I wonder how many could have been prevented with the right training, equipment and manpower levels. 
Community Veteran
Posts: 18,544
Thanks: 190
Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

A sad ceremony yesterday in Wootton bassett for the return of soldiers from Afghanistan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8143614.stm
http://tinyurl.com/n2bolw
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,486
Registered: 02-10-2008

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

@Artmo - I don't think there's anything wrong with the training - British Military training is amongst the best in the world.
Witness that British forces consistently beat the USA on exercises - be it RN, RAF or Army.
Witness a subject of another thread - the Vulcan crews often amazed the USAF at how that ancient aircraft could beat the most modern US aircraft. It was the crews training that was the governing factor.


Community Veteran
Posts: 18,544
Thanks: 190
Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

I agree with your comments Mal but according to General Guthrie they are not being trained fully in the UK and complete their training in action out there which he feels is not right.  It's difficult to know what is right but a number of high ranking officers have expressed disquiet over a long period of time. 
Community Veteran
Posts: 16,825
Thanks: 1,115
Fixes: 13
Registered: 06-11-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

The level of training to the UK armed services is second to none.  Wherever possible, the Army train according to the conditions available, at the "basic training" establishments in the UK. Continuation training for specific areas of the world, (eg Iraq/ Afghanistan) are also catered for by training in "similar terrain," and environment/weather conditions, which will only give the soldiers an "idea" of what it will be like when they are "deployed" to the theatre of operations.
To give a similar situation, can you remember learning to drive?  you went around your "local area" streets and roads that you knew as a pedestrian. You acquired skills necessary to be able to control the vehicle in relatively "peaceful" conditions...  Then you had your driving test.....  Then you were let loose on the rest of us.... !
BUT..... you are now in the situation of the well trained novice, (army personnel, recently trained, and now deployed)... You will now get "on the job" training, by driving amongst experienced people, and every day, you will be honing your skills, of observation, speed, and distance calculations, traffic sign recognition, rules of the road, and a thousand other details, will all become second nature... 
so don`t shout down the training of the Army, Navy or the Air Force.... On the job training is essential, in ALL walks of life, including the men (and women) sent to Afghanistan.
Community Veteran
Posts: 18,544
Thanks: 190
Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

I have the highest regard for our Armed Forces and the training they receive.  In repeating the comments made by General Guthrie what he was saying was that they were being sent into action before they had received sufficient training away from the front line.  I have a friend who works at the Pentagon and he has said on many occasions that he wished American forces were trained to British standards. Our Forces are respected throughout the world for their professionalism and rightly so.
Community Veteran
Posts: 7,149
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Registered: 30-08-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

Quote from: mal0z
Witness a subject of another thread - the Vulcan crews often amazed the USAF at how that ancient aircraft could beat the most modern US aircraft. It was the crews training that was the governing factor.

I don't want to steer this thread too far away from topic, that would be too irreverent to our "boys and girls" but,
But quite agree with mal0z. The US Airforce used to hold bombing competitions (called Red Flag exercises) RAF Vulcan's were invited to participate, going on to easily beat the mighty of the USAF.
Experience; is something you gain, just after you needed it most.

When faced with two choices, simply toss a coin. It works not because it settles the question for you. But because in that brief moment while the coin is in the air. You suddenly know what you are hoping for.
Community Veteran
Posts: 18,544
Thanks: 190
Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

There is to be a debate in Parliament this afternoon concentrating on the inadequacies and shortages in equipment. This has been highlighted by a number of people over the weekend.
Community Veteran
Posts: 18,544
Thanks: 190
Registered: 12-08-2007

Re: Afghanistan - 5 more killed.

The bodies of the eight soldiers killed in Afghanistan last week are being flown home to the UK today.  Three of the soldiers were only 18 years old.
A helicopter has crashed in Afghanistan overnight with the loss of 2 civilian workers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8149073.stm