cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

jamessealey
Grafter
Posts: 79
Registered: 10-08-2008

Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

Basically the missus had a fairly hefty bump in her car this morning as a result of the section of road she was on resembled an Ice rink, and by that I don't just mean icy, I mean it was shiny like glass!
http://www.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=ch49qp&sll=53.161066,-2.901957&sspn=0.007385,0.014... Shows the section of road.
Basically turning off the roadabout (bottom right of map) onto Sandpiper Way was fine, however about half way down the road was smooth ice and a Mini and a Security van had already collided at the junction of Sanpiper Way and Sanpiper Court, and were at the side of the road exchanging details. The missus comes round the corner looses steering and glides quite gracefully into the van.
I am curious to know however if anyone would know first of all who would be responsible for gritting the road, giving that Herons Way had been well gritted, presumably by the council, as it is a fairly major bus route through the business park. As far as I am aware it is a privately owned area.
Secondly, should the security van driver have placed hazard/warning triangle to warn of a potential incident?
In the time the missus was parked up (well I say parked...  Grin) I had arrived also, and we were waiting for the security van driver to finish exchanging details with the driver of the first car that hit him, a third car came steaming round the corner, and despite my waving arms and shouting 'Slow Down' slid sideways into the side of the van!
Finally, around 5 minutes later, another car came round the corner, saw me waving my arms - slammed on (fool) and slid straight into the front corner of the van that the first driver had hit! Clearly the security van driver is in for some stick when he gets back to the office!
Thankfully there were no injurys, however I am curious to know how the insurance companies will handle things, who is/was to blame - if anyone?
All in all an exciting morning! The thing the missus is most gutted about is that Ermentrude (yes that's her cars name aparently) is out of action for the foreseable future!
And before anyone pipes up, i'll say nothing about the standard of the missus's driving, she admits she should of been going slower, but did not expect the road to be as icy as it was.
42 REPLIES
pierre_pierre
Grafter
Posts: 19,757
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

its just a case of let the driver beware.   - hard luck - you cant blame the people all ready there
Highway code quote
Quote
230
When driving in icy or snowy weather
    * drive with care, even if the roads have been treated
    * keep well back from the road user in front as stopping distances can be ten times greater than on dry roads
    * take care when overtaking vehicles spreading salt or other de-icer, particularly if you are riding a motorcycle or cycle
    * watch out for snowploughs which may throw out snow on either side. Do not overtake them unless the lane you intend to use has been cleared
    * be prepared for the road conditions to change over relatively short distances
    * listen to travel bulletins and take note of variable message  signs that may provide information about weather, road and traffic conditions ahead
231
Drive extremely carefully when the roads are icy. Avoid sudden actions as these could cause loss of control. You should
    * drive at a slow speed in as high a gear as possible; accelerate and brake very gently
    * drive particularly slowly on bends where loss of control is more likely. Brake progressively on the straight before you reach a bend. Having slowed down, steer smoothly round the bend, avoiding sudden actions
    * check your grip on the road surface when there is snow or ice by choosing a safe place to brake gently. If the steering feels unresponsive this may indicate ice and your vehicle losing its grip on the road. When travelling on ice, tyres make virtually no noise

jamessealey
Grafter
Posts: 79
Registered: 10-08-2008

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

Agree with all of that, and to be fair most people have probably followed these guidelines this morning and travelled safely, I am still curious to know if any responsibility lies with anyone for gritting the road. The local council do have criteria listed on their website detailing the criteria for roads they will grit (obviously they cant do every inch of every road):
Quote
Priority 1 Routes
are all ‘A’ Class carriageways, and designated routes to A & E Hospitals. Then in order to maximise efficiency and scale of economy, other classes of carriageway which are required to be driven as part of the route, in linking up the ‘A’ Class network, will also receive this level of treatment. These will be as identified on the Winter Gritting Route Plans;
Priority 2 Routes
are other major commuter roads (‘B’ class), major commuter/distributor roads carrying 4 service buses or more per hour between 06.00 and 10.00am, roads serving emergency services/public transport centres/comprehensive and secondary schools/higher education establishments, roads with gradients greater than 10% and carrying more than 1000v/day and main access roads to rural communities/villages. Third party funded Public Highways are also treated, however this will only continue for the duration of the external funding being made available. These will be as identified on the Winter Gritting Route Plans;
Other Carriageways
it is Not considered practical because of resources and costs to pre-treat all highways and Other Carriageways will not be pre-treated. The aim is that these will only be post-treated to remove ice or snow only after all the Priority 1 and 2 routes are treated and open to traffic and when snow or ice is likely to persist for a continuous period of 24 hours. This will also depend upon available resources.

Doesn't really commit them to gritting much other than main A roads really....
pierre_pierre
Grafter
Posts: 19,757
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

the probably a universal policy Huh
Community Veteran
Posts: 3,181
Thanks: 19
Fixes: 2
Registered: 31-07-2007

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

In Scotland it used to be the council was responsible for gritting, but that stopped about 8 years ago now its private firms.  But the police also have a hand in as there responsible for road safety, so complain to them and make a complaint vs the firm doing the gritting with the police.
Unvalued customer since 2001 funding cheap internet for others / DSL/Fibre house move 24 month regrade from 8th May 2017
James
Grafter
Posts: 21,036
Registered: 04-04-2007

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

Or take the sensible option and stay at home Smiley
Community Veteran
Posts: 16,834
Thanks: 1,124
Fixes: 13
Registered: 06-11-2007

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

It might be possible to establish if the security van driver was stopped before the first collision, i.e. parked for delivery/collection, and possibly causing an obstruction by his inconvenient (to other road users) place of stopping... In which case, the first driver would have some sort of claim of obstruction of safe passage, due to the icy conditions of the available road, and sighting of said parked vehicle on approach from the exit of the roundabout....
as for the rest of the collisions.... I think I tend to agree, it will be down to "driver beware"... The police seem to use the term "without due care and attention" ..... due care..... extra vigilance due to icy conditions generally,    attention,  not being aware of what was/had happened in front of you !
How the insurance companies sort it out, depends to a great extent on the "personal" choice of cover each motorist had at the time....i.e. fully comp, tpft. or road traffic act cover.  Each company will claim from the next....
Were the police notified of the collisions, and did they attend?
techguy
Grafter
Posts: 2,540
Registered: 12-09-2008

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

Perhaps it just got fed up with being called Ermentrude and thought 'eat this'  Smiley
Joking aside, glad everyone is ok and agree with gus, police/local council
Community Veteran
Posts: 7,149
Thanks: 51
Fixes: 2
Registered: 30-08-2007

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

Quote from: shutter

Were the police notified of the collisions, and did they attend?


I do hope so, as another offense is committed by not doing so...failure to report an accident...for which if plod is in the mood to throw a book they will add to the tally. They don't necessarily have to attend, you can report it at a police station, depends if there are personal injuries, but mostly for "routine" minor damage only RTA's the police will not attend unless there are other charges alleged; driving without due care and attention, dangerous driving etc. etc. If you want the police kick up a fuss to get them.
Experience; is something you gain, just after you needed it most.

When faced with two choices, simply toss a coin. It works not because it settles the question for you. But because in that brief moment while the coin is in the air. You suddenly know what you are hoping for.
198kHz
Seasoned Pro
Posts: 3,217
Thanks: 253
Fixes: 7
Registered: 30-07-2008

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

As there were no injuries it wasn't necessary on that score. It would be required if 'name, address, owner etc' details were not exchanged.
http://www.lancashire.police.uk/index.php?id=424
Not young enough to know everything
Community Veteran
Posts: 7,149
Thanks: 51
Fixes: 2
Registered: 30-08-2007

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

Thats a very useful link 4Candles. However I'd be inclined to report it regardless, could get difficult if a third party decided at a later stage to make waves, irrespective of what may have been said or implied at the time of a shunt. I know its difficult but, try to stay cool and write everything down ASAP, if you've got a phone camera or indeed any other camera use it, however trivial it may seem, and don't forget to photograph the registration numbers if any damage is adjacent to a number plate include it.
This advice was given by the bus company I trained with, that company issued instamatic type cameras to all drivers with instructions to use use all 36 frames in the event of an accident, from every conceivable angle and distance from the event. It was a disciplinary offense to not be carrying the camera when driving.
Laborious maybe, but good advice.
Experience; is something you gain, just after you needed it most.

When faced with two choices, simply toss a coin. It works not because it settles the question for you. But because in that brief moment while the coin is in the air. You suddenly know what you are hoping for.
198kHz
Seasoned Pro
Posts: 3,217
Thanks: 253
Fixes: 7
Registered: 30-07-2008

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

Absolutely, Petlew - with so many people involved it would be sensible to report anyway.
Good point re the camera too. Some one backed into my parked car a few months ago (while I was standing there with the boot open!), and I think the fact that the first thing I did was start taking pics from all angles focused (no pun intended) his mind somewhat.  Wink
Not young enough to know everything
Community Veteran
Posts: 13,923
Thanks: 514
Fixes: 7
Registered: 01-08-2007

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

Quote from: jamessealey
And before anyone pipes up, i'll say nothing about the standard of the missus's driving, she admits she should of been going slower, but did not expect the road to be as icy as it was.

I know you won't appreciate me saying this but when its been snowing or very cold you should ALWAYS expect there to be ice on the road. The fact that one road is ok doesn't mean they all are. If you value your life and your car you'll take that extra caution. If you don't take that caution then that says something.
I work in parking services about 18 miles away from home. Yesterday there was snow everywhere. I drive an automatic.
Yesterday despite the snow and ice everywhere I drove 18 miles to work. I allowed triple slowing distances and pulled away in 2nd gear (snow mode as its an auto) very gently. Despite this half way through my journey I still had to pull over and offer to help a lady who had in her haste to drive as fast as possible, broken her front wheel steering. Both the front wheels were pointing outwards in different directions and also tilting outwards. Frankly I think the only thing holding the car off the road surface was the oil sump!
I'd never driven on snow before. I've been driving less than 2 years. My first experience of snow was with a automatic with a 2.5 engine (which has so much power it is easy to wheel spin on ice).
I got to work, the entire car park was one massive ice rink. Despite that, I got through the barriers smoothly and parked safely. Once the customers were rolling in they were slipping and sliding all over the place because no-one uses any common sense these days. One nearly went through the barrier while it was still closed. She just slammed her brakes on (clearly a girl racer not knowing any different) and the car carried on moving forward with its wheels locked for 3 feet!
I don't mean to keep harping on about it but people do need to use common sense. In icy conditions you just cannot assume the road is safe. SLOW DOWN. Tyres do not grip well on ice at speed.
@james: Your wife was lucky yesterday. From what I understand this happened on a bend where visibility was minimal. Imagine if there was a cyclist or horse rider there who she killed because she refused to slow down and be careful... You're wife could be sitting in a jail cell. It really is not worth the risk. To be honest the very fact that she didn't throw caution to the wind suggests she was driving without due CARE and ATTENTION to what she was doing. No offence.. intended but you have to look at this from an outsiders POV.
Cars are not go karts. They're machines with a lot of weight and momentum in them. They KILL in the wrong hands.
I was watching traffic cops last night on the TV. This coppa pulled over an old fella in a black range rover sport for over taking on a solid white line at a junction. The old fella just sat there saying "Did I?... thats not the sort of thing I'd do!" Clearly in denial that he could be so wreckless. Denial doesn't save you from being stupid on the road - being careful does.
Sorry to rant on guys but these days there are so many maniacs on the road its very frustrating. Don't even mention fog lights... I could write a book on my frustrations with those..
I need a new signature... i'm bored of the old one!
pierre_pierre
Grafter
Posts: 19,757
Registered: 30-07-2007

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

Going back to the bad winter of 63, I was working as a Vehicle test engineer on Boreham air field, we had it covered in Snow from Xmas to end of March, no body else to worry about, just a lot of snow on a big empty airfield, got lots of practice then.  The general rule is to ue as high a gear as possible and to ANTICIPATE what  you are going to do next, 
There is a long winded program on Chan 5 - they say a new series starts tomorrow - Called Ice Road Truckers,  Supplying the Mines in Northern Canada.  What surprised me there was that they didnt seem to use special tyres or studs, only occasionally snow chains.  In Europe generally you have to use either in winter, although some places have banned studs.
My experience of Automatics was not as I would have expected, Got stuck in deepish snow on the Airfield, we thought that it should get through with no problem, the conventional gearbox jobs did
Another hint, if driving on a lot of snow, lower the tyre pressure to increase your footprint, Dont forget  to put them back to the correct pressure after though
Had good fun on the main runway, Large Shovels, those with the rounded sides, a long rope from handle to back of car, an idiot standing on it and off we go
itsme
Grafter
Posts: 5,924
Thanks: 1
Registered: 07-04-2007

Re: Advice/Knowledge sought! Road Gritting!

I go skiing several times in a season and mostly I will drive, the last time being over this xmas. if people are familiar with Geneva airport they will know that there is a Swiss and a French side. The car hire is cheaper on the French side but I use the Swiss side in the winter as in Switzerland it's mandatory to have winter tyres and carry snowchains. Winter tyres have a different tread pattern and made from a different rubber compond to give better grip at lower temperatures.
I have always been amazed the grip these tyres give me on snow and ice over the normal tyres fitted in the UK. This was highlighted this Christmas when using a carpark at a ski station which was on a hill. The British cars were wheel spinning and slidding but the cars fitted with winter tyres were being driven mormally. In ski resorts only the main through roads are cleared carparks, side roads and roads up the hill to housing are very rarely cleared. Which is a pain if I use my car to go to a friends apartment. Have to navigate a 100m hill after which the roads have been cleared. With my UK car sometimes it will require me to use snowchains but with the hire car no problems. Just a pain putting on snowchains for  100m. In the past have left them on for the 5 mile trip to the next village but they do not drive very well on tarmac.
The rules of driving is everything gently. Most UK drivers will accelerate even more when encountering wheel spin. This will only make the ice under the spinning wheel worst. Put the car in 2nd gear and accelerate gently without getting wheel spin. Braking should be done gently and ABS may increase the braking distance as in ice and snow locking the wheels to let the tyres dig in would be better.
But by the description of the accident, other then driving slower, very litter could be done once in the skid. My worst moment driving in a ski resort was a few yeras ago going down a hill, road was clear of snow slowed downed to take a hairpin bend and the back of the car started to overtake the front.