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Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

Community Veteran
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Registered: ‎15-06-2007

Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

This is a dig at Plusnet's ordering system and also where BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
The first picture is what the checker was showing when I ordered
The second picture is what it now gives
My actual sync speeds are : 47723kbps 9462kbps
13 REPLIES
Terranova667
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

I have seen that from the start Oldjim, sadly i no longer have a snapshot of my original estimate range to hand but it was 67Mb down 15 up before i joined plusnet back in March 2014, i synced at 65Mb down 12 Up when i was connected,  the estimate range stayed that way until i got my first drop back in June 2014 in which the estimate range was lowered to 38Mb down  8Mb up,  funny how that happens when you get a fault..
it has since changed again slightly to the current
FTTC Range A (Clean)        44        32.4 8.9   6              
FTTC Range B (Impacted) 37.6 22.4 8.9 4.6
My IP profile currently is 47.5Mb down 4Mb up   the upload on the impacted has been lowered to my current level it use to say 6Mb as well as the clean so Openreach have changed it when they couldn't get my speeds back from my last drop back in August.
as you say goal posts are being moved around so you can't win, and yeah the plusnet ordering system is a pain, going by the system only using the lowest figure in the range they wouldn't offer me the 80/20 package as it currently stands despite the top end of the range still being above the 40Mb requirement.
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

@ Jim
Did the estimate change recently or shortly after your installation?
Community Veteran
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

recently - it stayed at the higher level for at least  a couple of months and possibly even 3 months
Community Veteran
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

I'm a bit puzzled by the title and your sync speeds. Are you actually on the 80/20 product?
These days (as I understand it) the checker database is more frequently updated, not only with data from your own connection, but from other connections on your DP.
Apart from the inevitable increased cross-talk as the number of connections increases, as an increasing number of connections these days are becoming "self install", it is likely that a number of them are not achieving the speed that they otherwise might, due to poor internal wiring. This of course will lower the average and hence the predicted speeds given by the checker.
Frankly, what I think is poor, is the way the checker presents the range of speeds differently for FTTC and ADSL. Bearing in mind the checker is giving results for a specific line, for FTTC this looks as though it's based solely on an average for the DP, whereas for ADSL the upper limit on the range seems to be based on achieved speeds rather than average.
Out of curiosity, what make of cabinet are you on?
Dodger21
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

Too much demand and not enough capacity, add in the issues with crosstalk etc, so expectations are being set lower, so that people who sync between 50 to 60Mbits don’t get the chance to complain when they get just over 40Mbits
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

Sorry, demand and capacity has absolutely nothing to do with one's connection sync speed to the Cab. It is that to which the Broadband Checker is referring, not throughput speeds.
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

Quote from: Oldjim
recently - it stayed at the higher level for at least  a couple of months and possibly even 3 months

So when a new cabinet goes live, the estimates are exactly as described - they are estimates, based on the historical performance of other lines. The distance between the cabinet and DP is known, and an estimate is made for the final drop. This is what produces the initial estimates for lines.
When the first new lines go live, then the estimates for those on the same PCP (without a FTTC service) will change as there is actual performance data available. This is used to refine estimates for other lines on the cabinet.
Once an individual's FTTC goes live, then Openreach know the line performance and data is sent/analysed each day. The DSL Checker still shows 'estimates', but this is the now using measured noise figures (the dB loss when calculated at 300kHz when the line is operating on the “Speed” DLM policy) to compare how a line should perform relative to other lines of a similar noise figure across the country.
In your case, I can only assume that there has been an increase in the line noise (which has reflected in the estimate change) - but no change in your sync speed?
Openreach were due to introduce a new way of providing speed estimates at the end of the year. Not quite sure where this stands now though as I've not been tracking things recently.
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

Quote from: AndyH
Once an individual's FTTC goes live, then Openreach know the line performance and data is sent/analysed each day. The DSL Checker still shows 'estimates', but this is the now using measured noise figures (the dB loss when calculated at 300kHz when the line is operating on the “Speed” DLM policy) to compare how a line should perform relative to other lines of a similar noise figure across the country.

Um, excuse me, but you haven't mentioned the fact that the estimates are also "weighted" based upon performance of all connections on the DP.
Quote from: AndyH
In your case, I can only assume that there has been an increase in the line noise (which has reflected in the estimate change) - but no change in your sync speed?

Of course there will be an increase in noise, from cross-talk at least, as I'd already mentioned.
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

Quote from: Anotherone
Um, excuse me, but you haven't mentioned the fact that the estimates are also "weighted" based upon performance of all connections on the DP.

I haven't mentioned it because this is not correct (at least according to the eMLC Range of Values).
Quote from: Anotherone
Of course there will be an increase in noise, from cross-talk at least, as I'd already mentioned.

Unless Jim's cabinet has been unusually slow to fill up (it went live in June), then I suspect cross talk is unlikely to be the explanation for a recent and sudden drop. If it was cross talk, it should have also affected his sync speed.
Community Veteran
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

Quote from: AndyH
I haven't mentioned it because this is not correct (at least according to the eMLC Range of Values).

Well it certainly appears to be for ADSL connections. Maybe if that is so, it explains why Jim's estimated takes no cognisance of his current sync speed. I don't have access to that document. Perhaps you could check with/ask your mates at OR why they don't take account of real performance at a local level (Cab/DP)? After all cables around different parts of the country are different standards and ages, depending when they were installed. The biggest anomaly, as you know, is the difference between older aluminium and copper cables. If OR don't take real performance at a local level into account, maybe that's why their estimates are so frequently wildly out and are widely regarded as a bit of a joke.
Quote from: AndyH
Unless Jim's cabinet has been unusually slow to fill up............

I would fully expect take up to have been slow during the summer months when people would be away on holiday, have lots of outdoor pursuits etc, rather than be concerned about what broadband they may use.
Quote from: AndyH
In your case, I can only assume that there has been an increase in the line noise (which has reflected in the estimate change) - but no change in your sync speed?

Quote from: AndyH
If it was cross talk, it should have also affected his sync speed.

I'd only expect that to be the case if he'd had a drop in connection and higher sync speeds at the outset. But as Jim can see his stats, he'd be able to say if noise margins had reduced. So if that wasn't the case, then one can only assume that the downgraded estimates are due to "improved" OR estimating Roll eyes  or that recent additional FTTC connections are not performing at potentially optimum speeds for the reasons I gave in reply #4 or individual cable issues/faults as mentioned by the checker
Quote from: DSL
For FTTC Ranges A and B, the term "Clean" relates to a line which is free from any wiring issues (e.g. Bridge
Taps) and/or Copper line conditions, and the term "Impacted" relates to a line which may have wiring issues
(e.g. Bridge Taps) and/or Copper line conditions.

whether or not those recent additional connections are country-wide or on a more local basis.
Dodger21
Grafter
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

Quote from: Anotherone
Sorry, demand and capacity has absolutely nothing to do with one's connection sync speed to the Cab. It is that to which the Broadband Checker is referring, not throughput speeds.

Yes but as stated, the sync rate currently is 47Mbit so there would be a benefit though not as much as it was but you are unable to order a higher priced product?
You also have to consider the upload speed will now be limited to 2Mbit when 9.5 Mbit is achievable thus saving bandwidth for Plusnet.
Community Veteran
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Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

Well obviously, but that will depend on the product chosen (and provided)!
Dodger21
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Registered: ‎02-05-2013

Re: Why can't I order 80/20 when I could and did

Quote from: Anotherone
Well obviously, but that will depend on the product chosen (and provided)!

Exactly the point, choice has been removed to save bandwidth.