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Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

No problem and I agree with you that sometimes a fault causing a minor issue can become a bigger problem if left. We've not received any update since 6am when the fault was assigned to an engineer, has the engineer been yet?

If they've not let me know and I'll chase things up with our suppliers. Just conscious about chasing things up too early in case the engineer's advised you they're running late or are still working on the job.

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 Anoush Mortazavi
 Plusnet Help Team
MJN
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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

Hi Anoush,

The engineer has just left having put a few hours effort in and, well, I don't quite know where to start! Undecided I imagine he'll be sending a formal report back but the summary from my perspective:

1. He was confused on arrival as to the purpose of the visit because the instructions (which I think he said came from Plusnet) was to check the line as I should apparently been getting a minimum speed of 58Mbps (rounding off, he did mention a more precise figure) and a predicted speed of 65Mbps. Neither of us knew where these figures came from (they don't align with the DSL Checker  page for example) and, more confusingly, my sync rate was 66MBps and so from his point of view there was no fault to look for, nevermind fix.

2. Notwithstanding the above as he'd crossed half the county to get to me and I'd made him a cup of tea he figured he may as well do some testing. He did various things but all his conclusions was that there was nothing wrong with my line. He said that if he was being picky there was a slight reflection detected on his TDR test so he pulled up the cable duct outside and checked/remade the connection. After a bit more testing he then went to the cabinet and found the port I was on was only outputting 95Mbps and, preferring 100Mbps, he requested a lift-and-shift(?) and put me on to another port that was giving 100Mbps. He said that the slightly increased headroom is probably responsible for me now syncing at 67Mbps.

So leaving aside all the detail of the path we've been on I'm not sure where we go from here? My speed tests are showing ~61MBps/18Mbps down/up (same as before) and there seems to be an enormous amount of confusion about what speeds I should actually be getting:

- The BT DSL Checker says 70.1 - 80 with a handback of 65

- The note from Plusnet to the Openreach engineer says minimum 58, predicted 65

- The periodic automated emails I am getting from Plusnet are referring to my Minimum Guaranteed Speed as being 59.1 (as supposedly advised but what I was actually advised on contract renewal was 65 Mbps).

Can you try and shine some light on all this confusion?! Which of the above numbers should we be using as a reference point against which to determine whether there is an issue or not? More to the point, do you know why the numbers are all different despite presumably intending to be talking about the same thing?

MJN
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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

(Just spotted your post prior to mine - thanks for checking up on things!)

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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)


@MJN wrote:

I think my main concern though is that if there is an issue - which there surely is if the estimates (and MGS) aren't being reached - then I'd rather get it resolved now whilst I still have a well-working connection (it's certainly very stable) than leave it until things get worse.


The problem with this attitude is that any minor issue will either be difficult to locate or not even worth someone bothering to look for. If it gets worse, then you call out Openreach. If you try to get something fixed before it becomes a problem, it's hardly surprising Openreach don't find anything to fix when they turn up.

MJN
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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

That's the nub of the issue really - it is not clear whether there is a problem or not. My speeds are below the minimum guaranteed, or at least they are for some of the numbers that represent this figure (which crucially, I suppose, includes that contracted for), and so presumably that's the basis for a ticket raised for me in the first instance.

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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

Hi @MJN thanks for the summary. 

1. He was confused on arrival as to the purpose of the visit because the instructions (which I think he said came from Plusnet) was to check the line as I should apparently been getting a minimum speed of 58Mbps (rounding off, he did mention a more precise figure) and a predicted speed of 65Mbps. Neither of us knew where these figures came from (they don't align with the DSL Checker  page for example) and, more confusingly, my sync rate was 66MBps and so from his point of view there was no fault to look for, nevermind fix.

That's odd, I've discussed with @MatthewWheeler who booked the engineer and we didn't leave any notes and we don't normally unless it's a repeated/escalated appointment. The engineer did note to us that your speeds were performing within estimates but carried out a lift and shift to change the port at the cabinet and the speeds increased to 67.4mbps.

To be honest we're unsure as to what estimates the engineer may be looking at, because from checking an Openreach system called enhanced line characteristics(ELC) I can definitely see the estimate is 70.1mbps. It's possible the engineer's either referring to expectations of the line or the minimum guaranteed/handback threshold of 65mbps.

2. Notwithstanding the above as he'd crossed half the county to get to me and I'd made him a cup of tea he figured he may as well do some testing. He did various things but all his conclusions was that there was nothing wrong with my line. He said that if he was being picky there was a slight reflection detected on his TDR test so he pulled up the cable duct outside and checked/remade the connection. After a bit more testing he then went to the cabinet and found the port I was on was only outputting 95Mbps and, preferring 100Mbps, he requested a lift-and-shift(?) and put me on to another port that was giving 100Mbps. He said that the slightly increased headroom is probably responsible for me now syncing at 67Mbps.

Yeah the engineer (briefly!) mentioned that too. 

We can arrange another engineer for a second opinion but there may not be anything more which can be done if testing comes back fine apart from change the cabling at the D(distribution) side as they've already carried out a lift and shift. 

If you want to go down this path once we've booked the engineer, we'd be happy to make sure it's escalated.

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 Anoush Mortazavi
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MJN
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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

Thanks Anoush. In all honesty I didn't feel like there was much else the engineer could've done. I certainly got the impression he was maxed out on ideas, and he definitely hung around long enough to prove he wasn't trying to rush off or anything.

I'd appreciate your professional opinion on this really as how significant it is that I am not getting the minimum guaranteed speed - or am I? Can you confirm exactly what this is? My original email says 65Mbps, the most recent say 59.1Mbps. Incidentally should I be ignoring the DSLChecker figures entirely?

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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

IMHO there is no fault, Openreach shouldn't have been sent out the first time, and the no fault found charge should be paid. All swapping ports or sections of wiring will be doing is looking for another one that currently may have slightly less crosstalk but with no guarantee the new one will remain better in the future.

MJN
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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

So what's the significance/purpose of their being a Minimum Guaranteed Speed? All the literature says 'if we cant fix the fault you are free to leave without penalty' (or words to that effect) but you're saying there isn't a fault? (Genuinely seeking understanding here by the way)

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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

That's about it, being able to leave your contract without penalty if you can't achieve that speed after they've tried and failed to improve it.

I'm saying there isn't a fault as in I think there is nothing significant someone's going to find and fix. I expect that if you keep getting Openreach out over and over again they might find some way to improve the speed slightly. Whether such an endeavour is worthwhile or not is a matter of opinion. It's what, 66 instead of 70 sync speed. OK so now Plusnet state estimated and minimum speeds in terms of download speed rather than sync speed, which I think is utterly meaningless without defining what protocol headers like TCP or IP you are or aren't including in that figure (perhaps it's specified in some Ofcom document).

MJN
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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

Understood; thanks ejs for your thoughts.

I'll just await a reply from Anoush and then decide what to do next. Thanks again.

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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

Yup it does seem that the engineer was thorough and the tea probably helped! Everyone likes tea. Smiley

Sorry for the confusion with your minimum guaranteed speed, it is definitely 65mbps because that's what we've agreed with you at the time of renewing your contract. Unfortunately your account hasn't updated to reflect this as I'd hoped.

It's not really significant to be honest unless you're looking to leave, realistically that's the only time we should be looking at it. For fault purposes we should go by the current estimates and expectations of the line on the DSL Checker which draws its results from the enhanced line characteristics application on the Openreach portal.

The minimum guaranteed speeds as far as I'm aware should sit just below the estimates of a line, although sometimes estimates can drop over time but your minimum guaranteed won't for the duration of your contract term.

While the minimum guaranteed speed referring to throughput nowadays compared to sync makes it difficult to fix because there can be a wider range of issues that can affect throughput, it's more clearer to the average Joe what they're buying.

Just a hypothetical, if we agree a minimum of 65mbps, but over a few months the estimates drop to say 30mbps (Which likely wouldn't happen or at least I hope not), if we're not seeing any causes for this then we'd normally deem your service now working within expectations and then look at the minimum speed, writing the contract off if you'd want us to.

As your speeds were/are below the current estimates, your minimum guaranteed speed and the engineer carried work out on the line externally, I'd wouldn't have thought we'd charge you for the appointment. Feel free to let me know if you do receive a notification (Normally within 90 days if it's going to happen) of a charge and I'd be happy to review that.

I think that ejs has a point in that while your speeds are below your minimum guaranteed and estimates, realistically it now appears that your line just can't handle anymore so the estimates may be a little optimistic. They're only estimates after all. I've seen this go the other way and estimates show a really low speed and a line overperforming beyond all expectation.

Hope this helps. Feel free to let me know if you've got any further questions about this.

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 Anoush Mortazavi
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MJN
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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply Anoush.

As mentioned previously I'm not wanting to leave and, even aside from the fact that another provider would likely not result in anything different given the common infrastructure, it's the level of service that you have aptly demonstrated in this thread that is a key factor for me being keen to stay. If/when things go wrong it is, for me, more about how it is dealt with than the problem itself and whilst there has been a fair bit of confusion with this issue I really can't complain on the service front, so thanks.

So, in light of today's engineer's visit and subsequent discussion I am happy to take no further action. Thanks again for all your efforts. Smiley

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Re: Failing to achieve Minimum Guaranteed Speed (Ticket Ref: 193024240)

Not a problem @MJN cheers for the kind words, I’d want the same level of service if I was in your position (And occasionally I am).

Let me know if there’s anything else we can help with or if the fault returns with a vengeance (Which I’d hope it doesn’t)

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 Anoush Mortazavi
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