DLM question

[#1]

oops - deletion of duplicate post.

[#2]

Quote from: kitz

ETA Figures on the PN site are old - I contacted one of the reps ages ago about it.   The figures quoted above are FTTC Stable -  Other ISPs may use FTTC Standard Im also not sure if things may have changed with g.inp  MTBR will likely be the same.  Re MTBE  and Im not sure if DLM still uses the old figures or if there is some new g.inp monitoring that goes on too, rather than just watching for SES/ES,  weve not seen any evidence that it has changed, but it doesnt mean that it may not have.

I believe just one major ISP does not use the Openreach Speed DLM profile. Around 80% of ISPs use the Speed profile though.
Interestingly, there was a DLM change made on Tuesday to the MTBR threshold. It's basically been halved for all DLM profiles:
                   Old Threshold           New Threshold
Speed          8400                          4,200
Standard     16,800                        8,400
Stable          33,600                      16,800
The idea of the change is to prevent DLM interventions on those people who are switching their modems on/off repeatedly.
The MTBE threshold remains the same apparently. G.INP does make significant reductions in the number of ES/SES according to the Openreach.

[#3]

The idea of the change is to prevent DLM interventions on those people who are switching their modems on/off repeatedly.
^^ DLM still act if kept doing turn on & off without 30 minutes power off. Or are DLM no longer take action if the modem isn't powered down for at least 30 minutes?

[#4]

I don't know where the 30 minutes comes from.

[#5]

Kitz say always power down at least 30 minutes to avoid DLM (if swapping modem over) Eg: if the customer power down less than 30 minutes of swapping modem over or turn on and off too many times then DLM will act next morning around 4am to 6am to put interleaving on and reduced the sync rate. It's happen to me last year when my sync rate was dropped to 72Meg from 79Meg and interleaving was put ON and disabled fast path by DLM. It's was removed three days later.

[#6]

Quote from: AndyH

Interestingly, there was a DLM change made on Tuesday to the MTBR threshold. It's basically been halved for all DLM profiles:                    Old Threshold           New Threshold Speed          8400                          4,200 Standard     16,800                        8,400 Stable          33,600                      16,800 The idea of the change is to prevent DLM interventions on those people who are switching their modems on/off repeatedly. The MTBE threshold remains the same apparently. G.INP does make significant reductions in the number of ES/SES according to the Openreach.

Just seen this by following a link in another thread.
@ Andy
Can I ask if you can double check those figures because they are meaningless without its pair.
Its unclear if those are MTBR red or MTBR Green, but because your mention of to prevent DLM interventions then I assume you are referring to MTBR RED

Are you sure where you have 'Old Threshold' that it shouldnt be green?  
Because the figures I see under where it says "Old threshold" tie up exactly with GREEN and those new figures you quote are not half of the previous red threshold.  The only one that has changed is Speed and its only changed very slightly.
---
ETA
These were the previous ones and the ones I referred to when I said those on the PN site were old and I'd advised Chris that they needed updating.
Green Red
8400 4320
16800 8400
33600 16800

[#7]

Quote from: AndyH

I don't know where the 30 minutes comes from.

I explained it in my post a few above yours but I shall repeat 

Quote from: kitz

As far as the DLM is concerned then a resync in the same 15min period counts as a retrain and strike one for the forced event counter. 30 mins ensures at least one complete 15 min period and the sync to be classed as an unforced event so discounted by the DLM

[#8]

No reply so Im calling this bit "Old Threshold  New Threshold" DUFF Info
I just noticed you yourself used MTBR green 8400 in your post here so absolutely no way can that those figures above be the old thresholds.
It also is yet further proof that Openreach cannot possibly have halved the thresholds. Someone has misinterpreted how it works and that two pairs are required and typed Old/New where it should say Green/Red.
Thank you for advising the slight change for speed - not that it makes much difference as it still works out at about 20, it just rounds figures for 'speed' inline with stable and standard.
I noticed in another thread you are still hanging on to 30 seconds belief.  That is plain WRONG and has NOTHING what-so-ever  to do with DLM.

[#9]

It's pointless responding to you - you clearly know better than everyone, including the OPs guys within TSO:

The changes were implemented on 12 May and notified the following day to CPs.

[#10]

Golf Cap  
Well Played AndyH  
You do know where that will end up .....
Off back to peanut gallery

[#11]

AndyH where is the list of the rollout for vectoring on exchange lists please?

[#12]

I asked you nicely if you could check.    Because the previous figures were
  Red
  4320
  8400
  16800

Its not just me that has been using those figure for a while (pre ASSIA). 
You yourself used the MTBE green of 8400 in your earlier post. You also used the retrain threshold of 20 which is 4320.
So quite obviously until last month you were also under the impression that MBTR Green was 8400 and MBTR red was 4320.  You cant dispute that because its in black and white here that you too were using those same figures in May 2015.
Other ISPs have also used those figures too, so they certainly arent figures that have been pulled out of thin air.
The fact remains that at one point they were using a red threshold of 4320/8400/16800 and now its 4200/8400/16800.
So basically when they are they now quoting what was the previous green under old,  I think it was a perfectly reasonable request to ask if you could check to make sure it shouldn't say Green.
The only plausible explanation is that those were indeed the old ones.. then some point between last year & G.INP they changed them which caused too many issues,  and so now they are changing them back again
I admitted in an earlier post that the previous figures could have changed in the meantime.

Quote

It's pointless responding to you - you clearly know better than everyone, including the OPs guys within TSO:

Conversely and quite the opposite Andy. I will hold my hands up if I am wrong. 
One thing Im not is someone who sits there and talks down to people.  What I hate is people who are condescending to others and I certainly don't go round acting with a holier than thou attitude.

[#13]

kitz, I want to say thank you for all your detailed explanations which a significant number of users should be able to understand. Far more helpful than just being quoted at from selected Openreach documents or briefings without a word of explanation or understanding (if there is any) and then to have some questions or comments twisted around to give an impression of superiority.

[#14]

It's a shame you cannot understand things from the horse's mouth - they don't get this feedback from the participants that attend the briefings.
(I was asked to remove the slide)

[#15]

Oh I understand things from the horse's mouth ok, but selected extracts out of context without explanation can be meaningless. And....

Quote from: kitz

.......... Quote It's pointless responding to you - you clearly know better than everyone, including the OPs guys within TSO: .....

You seem to think these TSO people are flawless and never get anything wrong, it doesn't matter how qualified they are or that various people around various forums will be equally well qualified, everyone is human and makes mistakes. Just look at the G.INP foul-up if you need proof.
One thing I certainly do know is, you are not the horse ......