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Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

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Plusnet Help Team
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

A fault found to lie with naturally ageing wiring or equipment would be chargeable, however by using the test socket and having either tried a different router or using a Plusnet router within warranty it’s unlikely we’d apply a charge if the fault was that unless the test socket is obviously damaged by damp etc.


Moving on to the outside boundary of the property, we’re not going to charge for an issue with a naturally aged dropwire or if it’s broken due to something beyond their control like strong winds.

 

Ultimately when it comes down to reviewing an engineer charge, we’re very fair either before/if we apply or after we do if they’re unhappy with it. We’re more than happy to review it again with any points they may have made.

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 Anoush Mortazavi
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Some of the dropwire (or underground service feed) will be within the boundary of your property.

 


@Gandalf wrote:

A fault found to lie with naturally ageing wiring or equipment would be chargeable

Do you mean Openreach's wiring or equipment? If so, that doesn't seem right. So you pay decades of line rental, apparently for nothing, then when it eventually fails, you have to pay to get it fixed?

Plusnet Help Team
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Internal wiring your side of the test socket isn’t our suppliers responsibility I’m afraid as the demarcation point is the test socket.
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 Anoush Mortazavi
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Do you acknowledge that the previous version of the charging statement that I quoted, and the current version that you quoted have different meanings?

Plusnet Help Team
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

As the statement you’ve quoted is an old one, it shouldn’t be relevant. The one I’ve quoted is the current and correct version.

[edit]
For the sake of clarity we’ll base any engineer charge on what’s agreed at the time of raising the fault/booking the engineer, however this doesn’t alter my explanations I’ve provided above and the fact that we aim to deal with these fairly.
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 Anoush Mortazavi
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

When did it change that we now have to pay for any fault within the boundary of our property?

 

The old version was fair and reasonable. I'd say the new version is unfair and unreasonable. Your stated aim of dealing with these charges fairly does not reflect the inherent unfairness of the charging statement that we're supposed to agreed to.

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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

I believe the statement was renewed within the last 30 days.

We're not going to charge for any fault within the boundary of your property regardless. Sorry if it's come across that way to you. If the issue is caused by your internal wiring, equipment(router etc that's not within warranty if a Plusnet one), and the condition of Openreach equipment within your property and its boundary we will, the condition being caused by damage though I can't see us charging if there's a natural disaster, it's more if you've damaged the Openreach equipment either physically or by dampness etc. 

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Baldrick1
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

I quote: .., the condition of Openreach equipment within your property and its boundary,..., you will be charged £65 to cover the cost of the engineer. 

To my simple mind a deteriorated feed cable due to age on a property falls within the description of poor condition of Openreach equipment within your boundary.

it therefore seems to me that there is a disconnect between Plusnet's written conditions and their current application of those conditions.

riccardo2
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

I think Gandalf made an error in the previous phrase when he says

We're not going to charge for any fault within the boundary of your property regardless.

Based on previous posts I suppose such "not" should actually be a "now", because few posts above he was saying

A fault found to lie with naturally ageing wiring or equipment would be chargeable

 

And I confirm: I don't find right to pay for a master socket or wiring problems caused by the passing of time because:

1) those are not actually mine despite on my property. On the contrary, the fact they are in my front garden and in the launge, it's because of a free rent (concession) from me --to--> them.

2) The line is on rental. That's for sure because on my bill I read 2 costs:
Line Rental £ 12.86 + Line Rental £ 6.13 = 18.99 Pound total rental

When something is on rental, the ageing MUST BE ON THE PROVIDER. I'm OK for the router  because I'm not paying a rent on it (hoping it's not such 6.13 pounds), but I'm not OK about the master socket and the cable behind it because that will never be mine + I pay a rent just for mantaining them. So why should I pay AGAIN for such non-mine stuff getting older?

3) It's ridiculous that I rent them my garden for free, I'm paying them a rent for all the cables involved, and finally I have to pay the ageing of the cable in my garden. How many time I have to pay this f...lipping cable?! Shocked

 

The cable is on my garden to let them provide the service.
The master socket (that nobody likes to see in the launge) is another concession the user accept to let them provide the service, not because the user yearns for it.

 

So, let's recap:

- The user let the provider to install unwanted stuff in their property (underground cables and an horrible master socket) just to have the service, not because he really wants such stuff. Such stuff is the downside of the service.

- The user pays a monthly rent for mantaining such goods. Its a HEAVY rent. It costs more than the FTTC itself.

- The user is forbidden to touch cables and master socket (this proves even more they are OpenReach property)

- The user is billed if something, he is already heavily paying for, doesn't work properly because of the ageing, despite is OpenReach stuff.

 

It's not fair.

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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Sorry for any confusion, I've not made any error as far as I can tell.

By natural ageing wiring and equipment I'm referring to your internal wiring, faceplate, router within your property. If these are found to be the cause for the fault and the router isn't a Plusnet one we've sent out in the past 12 months then yes we would pass on a charge of £65 to yourself to cover the cost of the engineer call out.

As mentioned previously the demarcation point is the test socket. Anything beyond that looking outwards would be Openreach's responsibility and we generally wouldn't charge unless you've damaged the Openreach equipment like a dropwire or junction box by for example building, garden works, dampness etc.

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Baldrick1
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

@Gandalf 

I think that the crux of this issue lies not in what you are telling us is the Plusnet policy, which I have no doubt is correct. and the wording of the charging warning message. If I may copy from your previous posts:

“If the engineer finds the problem is with your internal wiring, your equipment, the condition of Openreach equipment within your property and its boundary, or if no fault is found, you will be charged £65 to cover the cost of the engineer. This charge will also apply if you miss the appointment or cancel without giving us 2 working days’ notice."

There is no mention of Test sockets here and my interpretation, and I suspect of most others, is that a drop wire, for example, is "Openreach equipment within a customers property and its boundary". This could well have had 70 years to deteriorate and I can see why the application of this clause would be unreasonable but also why its inclusion would cause concern, despite your assurances that it's never applied.

If this wording does not properly reflect Plusnet's policy then shouldn't it be changed for an accurate statement?

Plusnet Help Team
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

We'll pass feedback on internally regarding this.

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riccardo2
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

By natural ageing wiring and equipment I'm referring to your internal wiring, faceplate, router within your property

 

the demarcation point is the test socket. Anything beyond that looking outwards would be Openreach's responsibility and we generally wouldn't charge unless you've damaged the Openreach equipment like a dropwire or junction box by for example building, garden works, dampness etc.

OK, so theoretically, a natural degradation of the cable beyond the master socket shouldn't be charged. At least in theory... Maybe in the real world it's not so easy though, because I think it's easy to mix up and turn:

- a cable natural problem (free) into a cable damage (65£)

- a socket problem (free) into dumpness problem (65£)

NB: reading about this, I've found some info saying it also applies to the OUTSIDE!Shocked I mean... they've realized this is UK and it rains basically every 24h?! And what about lightning? As for the rain, lightning in the garden seems to be charged as a damage caused by the user. Can anyone confirm this?

- a damage for natural reasons, e.g. rain (free?) into a damage made by the house owner (65£)

- If no fault is found. This would need some examples... if there isn't any damage in anything, but I'm getting 10mbps less than 3 years ago, is no fault? Probably yes because the test made by PS says there is no crosstalk, so if the engineer comes here and doesn't find anything damaged (which would result in a charge anyway) I will be charge because of no fault?



In the end Openreach (and resellers) could charge the users at will, because it's impossibile for the user to prove anything and probably the engineer is not obliged to prove anything to the user. In my house, pretty new, insulated everywhere, there is an average of no more than 50% humidity, but if the engineer find oxyde in the back of the master socket (that I'm not entitled to open), how can I prove it's not dumpness? If he says the cable has been damaged and I know it's impossible, how can I prove the contrary? And so on.

In fact it's not unusual at all to be charge for the wrong reason.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2723459/The-130-call-fee-BT-shouldnt-charge-you.ht...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jessica-investigates/bt-tried-to-charge-for-engineers-visit-to-fix...

https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2048736/fault-on-bt-landline-has-anyone-been-charged-130

https://community.bt.com/t5/Landline/Incorrectly-charged-for-engineer-call-out/m-p/163075

and so on... https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=broadband+engineer+visit+unfair+charge

 

BT Openreach call out charges BBC Watchdog
This is why now the ISPs ask to accept the statement of the 65£ (or more)

https://youtu.be/bPV7Nux8t6w



In other words, the less the engineer visits, the better. Obviously if the loss is huge the visit is worth the risk and even an unfair charge; on the contrary could result in a charge just to gain only 2mbps. So, at the moment I'll cope with a lower price then if the speed drops a lot, I'll ask for a visit in the hope the engineer will be able to find something to repair. Maybe somewhere there is some s..t like this Grin http://phonebt.com/internet-keeps-dropping/

 

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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

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@riccardo2 As above we robustly defend all engineer charges and will only pass on £65 of the charge we receive if absolutely valid. If a lightning strike for example hits your drop-wire or junction box in your garden then I wouldn't say that's damage caused by you, unless you're suggesting you can control the weather. Cheesy

If we can see your service is performing below expectations, and the engineer finds no fault with the service and nothing has changed following that, then we'd more likely to simply arrange another engineer. Engineer call-out charges are reviewed within 90 days following a fault investigation closing, so we can review the entire fault.

If we do apply an engineer charge and you feel we've been unfair then we are more than happy to review this again with any points you may have made. We want to be fair and make sure we do the right thing.

We wouldn't suggest booking an engineer if it wasn't the right call or if we knew you'd 100% be charged. That's not to say you won't be charged, because at this stage we don't know what the issue is.

However I hope the information I've provided over the past 24 hours helps.

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 Anoush Mortazavi
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riccardo2
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

However I hope the information I've provided over the past 24 hours helps.

Yes, it sounds less OpenReachminator terminator001  and more human now. Smiley