cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

FIXED
riccardo2
Grafter
Posts: 56
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎19-02-2017

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

One could almost think the service was devised by bean counters totally disregarding the engineering advice.

BBBWBHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA! Grin

 

However to me the most weird thing is this one...

https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/community-fibre-partnerships

 

I mean, Openreach revenues are billions per second and they put in place such initiative like a sort of charity when they actually will get their money back in a couple of months. And such communities will even have to pay for an engineer visit to repair the cables that are not property of the customer despite the customer funded the cabling! Crazy2 Grin

riccardo2
Grafter
Posts: 56
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎19-02-2017

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

As we are not allowed to go further down the line than the MasterBox, then logically this is the JOM point, please can you confirm this with OpenReach.

I don't think this question was for me but I've found this thread

https://community.bt.com/t5/Landline/wiring-and-the-master-socket/td-p/650908

where summing up all posts I understand that yes, the master socket itself is OpenReach responsibility but:

"Although openreach are responsible for the wiring up to and including the main socket any damage to this cabling on your premises by you there would be a charge by openreach for the repair."

Here we go again!Sad

 

See also

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/404384-who-is-responsible-for-the-master-socket/

 

And that's one of the articles I was referring to about the risk of being charged

Hundreds of customers have lodged complaints about BT engineers wrongly charging for work
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2723459/The-130-call-fee-BT-shouldnt-charge-you.ht...

Baldrick1
Hero
Posts: 3,076
Thanks: 1,315
Fixes: 85
Registered: ‎30-06-2016

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

@riccardo2 

You have proved that the problem is not your router by trying another. In an earlier post you have convinced yourself that it's not an underground fault on your property caused by yourself. Consequently I can only assume that you are refusing to allow Openreach to have a look as a matter of principle due to the presence of the charging clause. Common sense tells me that this is a standard clause put there for a very reasonable purpose and that it's not going to be removed and very very unlikely applied in this case.

Why not just let Openreach have a look and if they confirm that they cannot improve your speed go back to Plusnet and see if you can negotiate a decent 40/10 deal?

 

riccardo2
Grafter
Posts: 56
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎19-02-2017

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Consequently I can only assume that you are refusing to allow Openreach to have a look as a matter of principle due to the presence of the charging clause

Exactly.

Why not just let Openreach have a look and if they confirm that they cannot improve your speed go back to Plusnet and see if you can negotiate a decent 40/10 deal?

Because I don't even like the PS attitude toward existing customers, that is more or like the same as in the Aviva TV ad (https://youtu.be/eUyuackvqP8).

I don't get why I should bother to negotiate with a professional salesman that knows and uses every possible NLP trick instead of switching to another 67 fibre with a better router and 11 pound less per month (despite the speed will remain the same I have now).

 

My Experience with the customer option

In the last renewal with Plusnet an operator told me a price of 31.48 for 24 months.

I asked a discount at 31 pounds.

Reply: "I wish I could".

OK, I accepted the 24 month contract despite any new customer at that time had a better price (I don't remember... something around 29) for only 18 months contract. However I highlighted that such price was worse than for new customers and he replied: "That is a promotional offer design for customer to leave the current supplier and join plus net". That's is basically the equivalent of the "You are an E-XI-STING customer!!!" Grin

OK. The renewal process goes on and finally he shows (chat) tons of data that takes a while to read. However in the middle of this huge copy/paste I see a different price of 31.98 instead of 31.48.

I says: "The price has already risen from 31.48 to 31.98?! :-)".

Operator: "I said to u sir it is £31.98 for 24 months".

I copy/paste to him what he wrote 5 minutes before.

Operator: "I am sorry for the typing error it is £31.98 for 24 months". Knuppel

Tell me how can be a typing error a 9 instead of 4 that both in the numeric pad or over the letters are km away?Ticked off

 

So, is it really strange if I switch away instead of having a worse deal with the customer option?

They will never give a better deal to an existing customer compared to a new customer, and switching to another ISP seems to be the only way to go because being a loyal customer doesn't pay... I know because in 6 years, after the 1st year of BT adsl I switched to PS and never changed up to now. Going with TT with voucher it's 22/mo for the same rubbish/noisy FTTC 67. What's the purpose of asking the customer option a custom 40/10? Even if they can offer that at 22/mo it's still better 22/mo for a theoretical 67/20, at least in case Openreach realize the problem of this area and fix it, I'll find myself on a better speed.

 

Highlighted
Community Veteran
Posts: 5,374
Thanks: 579
Fixes: 25
Registered: ‎10-06-2010

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

I would like to point out that it is entirely up to Plusnet how much and under what circumstances Plusnet bill their customers. Yes Plusnet's terms reflect when Plusnet would be charged by their suppliers, but the £65 is a fairly arbitrary number from Plusnet.

 

Plus I think various members of the "no longer getting the full 80/20" club must have had plenty of Openreach visits for less cause and I can't imagine any of them paying - they'd just complain even more.

Baldrick1
Hero
Posts: 3,076
Thanks: 1,315
Fixes: 85
Registered: ‎30-06-2016

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

So if you're not going to get Plusnet to get Openreach to investigate the speed issue on principle and likewise aren't prepared to negotiate a new contract, again on principle, why have you been flogging away at this topic for the past 3 months, or again is this on principle?

riccardo2
Grafter
Posts: 56
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎19-02-2017

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

So if you're not going to get Plusnet to get Openreach to investigate the speed issue on principle

The principle is not on PS to investigate, is on PS asking to accept for possible 65 pounds

+

I don't care about openreach, I'm paying PS

+

the constant decline is not my fault because is on the cable AFTER the master socket and I don't care if PS/Openreach have agreed to charge the customer for problems on THEIR cables: after the master cable is not my stuff so I don't get why I should pay.

+

there tons of cases of people being charged 65 ore even more pounds for NOTHING, to find themselves as they where before the visit.

 

Same example: when I take a taxy I pay the ride, not the flat tire hidden inside the boot of the taxy. Asking for a possible charge of the cables property of Openreach is like asking to pay for the flat tire in the boot of the taxy. Morever I could also be charge for NO FAULT FOUND! Shocked

Plusnet can investigate as much as it wants, as long I don't get charged for PS/Openreach stuff. Otherwise, I should have the permission to check by myself the noise into the 4m of cable that runs from the back of the master socket to the road.

The only principle is: It's not right to ask me to pay for things that are not mine.

 

and likewise aren't prepared to negotiate a new contract, again on principle,

This is not on principle, it's on convenience and advantages, because:

the last time I renewed with PS I got a worse price than a new customer

+

I doubt I can negotiate a price lower than the 22 pounds/month for the 67 of TT (uswitch + voucher 70 pounds) including a newer Sagem router that is better than the old Hub One.

 

why have you been flogging away at this topic for the past 3 months, or again is this on principle?

1) I wasn't even interested in opening a fault,  I was pushed to do that by PS staff so I give it a try after months they were asking to do so, saying, for example, "It may be crosstalk"

2) To let PS know my point of view

3) To let other people think about this

 

Notes:

- I could have switched elsewhere mid-contract when the price arose from 32 to 33 pounds last year but I'm still here because I'm not so angry of speed, it's only a matter of PRICE/SPEED. Paying 33 Pounds for 38, max 40mbps it's not good at all.

 

Useless Extra offtopic: I don't know why in UK the FTTC cost so much despite so rubbish. I have a house in Italy where Wind-Infostrada gives me unlimited speed (I get REAL, sustained 91mbps/21) at 27 Euro (24 pounds), including unlimited calls to landline and mobiles. Cool

 

 

Community Veteran
Posts: 5,374
Thanks: 579
Fixes: 25
Registered: ‎10-06-2010

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

What's the actual text of the clause Plusnet send people?

 

The only relevant part of Plusnet's terms and conditions is:

8.2. We may charge you, as set out in the Price Guide, for any engineer visit if:

...

8.2.4. you report a fault, an engineer attends your premises and discovers the fault was not due to our services or equipment or, the reported fault was not present;

 

 

"Although openreach are responsible for the wiring up to and including the main socket any damage to this cabling on your premises by you there would be a charge by openreach for the repair."

(bold added to the above quote)

I think the idea of this is, for example, if you were digging in your garden and stuck a spade through Openreach's cable, you'd have to pay for fixing that. The principle is that if you were the one who broke it, you have to pay for it. For the taxi analogy, if you throw up in the taxi, you'd get billed for the cleaning.

dws1900
Rising Star
Posts: 221
Thanks: 28
Fixes: 1
Registered: ‎17-09-2018

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

@ejs 

 

Openreach document copper_developer_handbook shows ducting as a requirement when going from the street to the property,

but I assume a digger would take this out no problem.

If a spade went through an un-ducted cable then I would suggest the fault lies with BT/OR as the installation was not carried out in accordance with their protocols, even if a sub-contractor carried out the work.

Community Veteran
Posts: 5,374
Thanks: 579
Fixes: 25
Registered: ‎10-06-2010

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

That may be how things are supposed to be done recently, but there are lots of older places with "armoured" cables buried directly in the ground, because that was how things were done at the time. And I don't think you can insist Openreach turn up and put in a duct just because you think it should be done up to the modern standards. Of course when the buried cable eventually fails, or they get round to putting in FTTP everywhere, they'll have to do some digging.

Baldrick1
Hero
Posts: 3,076
Thanks: 1,315
Fixes: 85
Registered: ‎30-06-2016

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk


@ejs wrote:

 Of course when the buried cable eventually fails, or they get round to putting in FTTP everywhere, they'll have to do some digging.


About 20 years ago gas arrived in our village. I was extremely impressed as to how far they 'moled' the gas pipe first across the road and pavement to a small hole in my front lawn and then from there to the meter location. Assuming technology has improved since then maybe not that much digging is required. I just wish they would give up on the FTTC bodge and get on with it.

riccardo2
Grafter
Posts: 56
Thanks: 4
Registered: ‎19-02-2017

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

I think the idea of this is, for example, if you were digging in your garden and stuck a spade through Openreach's cable, I think the idea of this is, for example, if you were digging in your garden and stuck a spade through Openreach's cable, you'd have to pay for fixing that. The principle is that if you were the one who broke it, you have to pay for it.


Of course, in such case I would 100% agree to pay because that is a DAMAGE to someone else goods/property.
But a DAMAGE is not to be confused with AGEING of the goods of others (because I don't own the cable nor the master socket and I've never damaged them).

I've never used a spade in the front garden, and obviously the speed degradation month after month in 3 years it's already the proof that this is more related to ageing (cables/DSLAM/crosstalk) than a sudden damage to the 4m of underground cable in my property that 99.999% would have resulted in a massive negative impact immediately (e.g. no line at all).


For the taxi analogy, if you throw up in the taxi, you'd get billed for the cleaning.


It's not the exact analogy because:

1)
the cabin of the taxy is the equivalent of the only part in common between the customer and the provider of the service. For the taxy is the cabin were I seat, for the FTTC is the master socket. So throwing up in the taxy is the equivalent of "throwing up" on the master socket only, not on the underground cable.

The equivalent of damaging the underground cables is: opening the boot of the taxy and make a damage to the spare tire with a knife.

2)
Anyway, we are not talking of DAMAGING something, we are talking about natural AGEING of a system not owned by the customer and never accessed/damaged by myself, and this is the same as paying the old flat tire in the taxy boot.


My understanding is that, even if the customer touches absolutely nothing, Openreach/PS can charge 65 Pounds for the engineer visit if they find that the master socket and/or the cable behind it have a problem of any kind, even if it is not a damage and it's simply part of the ageing process.

This is not right because that means paying for the problems/goods of others (the provider), just like paying for the old cracked flat tire in the boot of the taxy.


To be even more close to the real case, basically it's like paying for the taxy MOT.

Community Veteran
Posts: 5,374
Thanks: 579
Fixes: 25
Registered: ‎10-06-2010

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk


@riccardo2 wrote:

My understanding is that, even if the customer touches absolutely nothing, Openreach/PS can charge 65 Pounds for the engineer visit if they find that the master socket and/or the cable behind it have a problem of any kind, even if it is not a damage and it's simply part of the ageing process.

I think your understanding is incorrect.

 

Is this still the statement Plusnet send?

If the engineer finds the problem is with your internal wiring, your equipment, the condition of your property or the Openreach network has been damaged within the boundary of your property by things like building or garden works or if no fault is found, you will receive a charge of £65 to cover the cost of the engineer. This charge will also apply if you miss the appointment or you cancel without giving us 2 working days' notice.

Plusnet Help Team
Plusnet Help Team
Posts: 13,385
Thanks: 4,125
Fixes: 665
Registered: ‎21-04-2017

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

The current engineer statement/one of the few scripts we read out is: “If the engineer finds the problem is with your internal wiring, your equipment, the condition of Openreach equipment within your property and its boundary, or if no fault is found, you will be charged £65 to cover the cost of the engineer. This charge will also apply if you miss the appointment or cancel without giving us 2 working days’ notice.
This will apply at all times whilst we’re working on the fault.
Do you accept the possibility of a charge?”

I’d like to note that we robustly defend all engineer charges and will only pass £65 onto you if absolutely valid. This process can take up to 90 days following a fault investigation closing. If we apply an engineer charge and you feel it’s unfair, by all means let us know or send me a PM and we’ll be happy to review it.

 

[edit]

The condition of Openreach equipment would as an example refer to dampness, if your property is damp this can corrode your telephone socket. It also refers to damage to the Openreach equipment within the boundary of your property. 

If this post resolved your issue please click the 'This fixed my problem' button
 Anoush Mortazavi
 Plusnet Help Team
Community Veteran
Posts: 5,374
Thanks: 579
Fixes: 25
Registered: ‎10-06-2010

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Thank you. Now I understand why @riccardo2 has taken an issue with it. No Plusnet customer should be agreeing to that! Whatever it was supposed to mean does not matter, what matters is what it actually says. It says you have to pay to fix any problem within the boundary of your property - was that really the intended meaning?