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Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

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riccardo2
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Registered: ‎19-02-2017

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

I don't agree much with

If the engineer finds the problem is with your internal wiring, your equipment, the condition of your property or the Openreach network has been damaged within the boundary of your property by things like building or garden works or if no fault is found, you will receive a charge of £65 to cover the cost of the engineer.

especially "your equipment" (actually it's yours), "or if no fault is found". Basically I could be charged whatever the reason. :sad:

Since the minimum guaranteed speed is not respected (sync at 42 instead of 44), since the decline is constant year after year and could be checked without any visit (and it's not strange because the P38 cabinet is 1 mile away from my house, so the crosstalk is quite normal), I don't think I want to expose myself with such statement.

I have a better solution: the 3rd of August my 24 month contract at 33 pounds/month is going to expire. Instead of contacting for the 2nd time the customer option, I'll switch directly to TalkTalk: the speed will surely remain the same because it's the same openreach stuff (maybe will increase a bit because of a better router), but at least I'll pay considerably less: via uSwitch and voucher is 22/month for the same 67 fibre.

 

Plusnet Help Team
Plusnet Help Team
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Registered: ‎11-01-2018

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

 

Hi @riccardo2

 

Thanks for getting in touch - I understand your concerns, but the statement is implicit in what would and wouldn't be chargeable - if the router was diagnosed as faulty, it is likely that it would be replaced (assuming it was still within it's warranty period) but everything else within that list is outside of our control and therefore may be chargeable if found to be the root cause of your speed issues.

 

Please let us know if you'd like to proceed with the engineer by responding to the ticket that Sammy has linked within her post - if you do decide to switch, I wish you all the best with your new provider.

 

Best wishes

 

Dave

 

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 Dave G
 Plusnet Help Team
riccardo2
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Hi Dave

Just out of curiosity, what do you think will happen if I agree? What are the chances to be "fined"? :undecided: To me doesn't sound "healthy" to agree to such stament because:

1) The router comes with the contract, so it is 24 months old. If the engineer says the router have problems I will have to pay 65 + other x pound for a new hub one (I doubt I will buy a new hub one...)

2) I have no idea if the crosstalk of a mile can really be fixed... maybe, but to which extent? 2mbps? I've lost 10mbps in 3 years. As the fibre customers increase in the area I suppose there isn't much to do other than switching to an FTTH or a non-Openreach provider. That's why I've logged a speed decrese year after year constantly. What do you think?

3) even if it is crosstalk and the engineer says "It's all OK, this is the max attainable speed now, there is nothing wrong.", I will have to pay 65 just to stay as it is. That's not good at all! :huh:

 

So I think I'd better stick with this speed, and aim to a better price instead of trying to fix the unfixable risking for a biscuit that doesn't exist. The extra-fibre is 200m from my house so sooner or later it will reach here and with that I could finally have back my 50mbps or more.


In any case, the lower the speed in the area the more customers will get angry and sooner or later Openreach will have to do something to cope with this overselling.

Plusnet Help Team
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Registered: ‎11-01-2018

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

 

Hi @riccardo2

 

I don't want to speculate on the chances of you being fined - I have no way of predicting or analysing the likelihood that the root cause of your issue is within the scope of our suppliers remit or otherwise.

 

Similarly, I have no way of estimating how much (if any) of an increase you would see to your speed following the engineer visit, whether crosstalk is evident on your line and/or whether this can be resolved - these questions are only answerable by an engineer who is physically able to attend and review the issue at hand.

 

If the engineer recognises that crosstalk IS evident but not resolvable, you won't be charged for the engineer - as the charging statement states, you'll only be charged if no fault is found (crosstalk would be a fault or service impacting issue) or if the issue is within your premises or the boundary of your premises (which is unlikely is the issue is crosstalk).

 

Please let me know if you'd like us to progress this for you - as much as I understand your frustration, I'm not able to pre-empt or predict the answers that relate to equipment owned by our suppliers.

 

Kind regards,

 

Dave

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 Dave G
 Plusnet Help Team
riccardo2
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Registered: ‎19-02-2017

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Thanks Dave,

I think I'll close the case as is. I'm 100% sure is crosstalking/overselling and it's not a faulty router because I've tested the speed with the OpenReach Modem + Technicolor and it's basically the same. Plus, is not something happened all of a sudden, it's happening month after month since 2014 up to now.

On the other hand I don't like the way problems are managed and I don't want to risk 65 pounds to gain a couple of mbps (I highly doubt the engineer can get me back at 51+ as it was 3 years ago because all the area is at low speed now).

Ideally, OpenReach should check by themself (and for their own interest) if the lines are a mess of crosstalk and wild overselling. I think wouldn't even be difficult to verify from the central that tons of lines in my area are all at SNR 6 and download 38 or less, so realizing that something is wrong...  E.g.  in my area because on the map at http://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/index.php I can see the best in the area it's just me! :cool: (apart a guy with Virgin FTTH at 213mbps :tickedoff:) Maybe OpenReach could make 2+2?

Well... as I said before... at least I can circumvent the problem saving money with another contract more adequate to this real speed that is now galaxies away from the advertised 76 (my contract) and increasingly more and more distant even from the minimum speed guaranteed.

 

Like cristians awaiting the return of the Messia, I'm praying and waiting for the advent of VDSL2 vectoring!:grin:

 

Thanks for your help, Dave.

riccardo2
Grafter
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Registered: ‎19-02-2017

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Curiosity.

Checking my street cabinet, the BT information reports:

Max Observed Downstream Speed (Mbps) 42.11          
Max Upstream Observed Speed (Mbps) 15.88          
Observed Date 2019-06-08

 

Question.

1) How can I get the minimum guarantee of 44mbps?

2) Why you want to send an engineer (and possibile 65 pound fee) to check my connection if none in the area now is able to reach more than 42mbps (and that's probably me... in fact as I said: I am the fastest in the area)?

 

Conclusion

It's not my house or devices, but the crosstalk/overselling that turned this
https://www.speedtest.net/result/5483810162
into this
https://www.speedtest.net/result/8446308589

and the problem can (and should) only be solved by openreach itself without any useless visit. It's not difficult for OpenReach to realize this area is becoming rubbish month after month.

I've read there is a project of expansion of my street cabinet in April 2020... let's hope to not reach 1mbps before such upgrade...

Plusnet Help Team
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Thanks for your post @riccardo2.

 

We're in no way saying there isn't a problem external to the property, however if there is, it's not flagging up during the tests that we're able to run remotely. As such, our suppliers are requesting we book an engineer visit to investigate further. I'm afraid we're unable to proceed with this without you agreeing to the terms of the visit.

When signing up with another provider, much like us, they will only be able to advise of the estimates provided by suppliers. Following the install they will likely still request you go through troubleshooting steps and book an engineer visit should remote testing still not flag up any issues.
 

The maximum observed speed also isn't specific to the cabinet, it's specific to your line. You'll note that max observed etc only appears when you search via the phone number and not the address or postcode checker.

 

It's also worth noting that on none of the tests we've run have we detected Crosstalk.

 

Please let us know if, moving forward, you'd like for us to arrange for the visit.

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 Owen P
 Plusnet Help Team
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk


@OskarPapa wrote:

It's also worth noting that on none of the tests we've run have we detected Crosstalk.

I don't think that implies their line isn't subject to any crosstalk though. Crosstalk is not a yes/no type of thing.

dws1900
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Registered: ‎17-09-2018

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

@JOLO 

@riccardo2 

 

RE  or it's Virgin/Non BT network services.

Re the comments on 300Mbs service, I have the same on my bt checker, and virgin or any other wired/fibre service is not available here. FTTP-BT is, but not in my street (until 2023 hahaha)

 

I fail to see why  BT would refer to a competiter on a utility purely for BT lines, for example if you put in a Sky owned number it won't work (well up to sep 2018)

Plusnet Help Team
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

You're 100% right, @ejs - although I would have expected us to see it in at least one of the tests we'd run.

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 Owen P
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riccardo2
Grafter
Posts: 57
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Registered: ‎19-02-2017

Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

The maximum observed speed also isn't specific to the cabinet, it's specific to your line.

You're right I didn't notice that. However with some reverse search and some neighbours numbers + a check on speed tester maps, I can state I don't see anyone having more that 40mbps in my area, now. It was better 3 years ago. So I can't see how is not crosstalk or congestion or a faulty street cabinet.

 

It's also worth noting that on none of the tests we've run have we detected Crosstalk.

I don't know how you test that, but I can say this:

1) My router, Hub One, is directly connected to the test socket, at any time. I don't use any phone, only internet, so there is no possibility of interferences from other phone devices or potential injection of noise from free cables working as antennas, because there is only the master socket and the router is daily connected on the test socket. By the way the test socket has exactly the same speed as the standard socket.

2) From the router to the test socket there is a Cat6 cable of 25cm in lieu of the rubbish long flat cable the router comes from. Actually there is no interference in the air so this Cat6 doesn't improve almost nothing either.

3) From the master socket to the outside of the house there are 2m

4) the front garden where the line exits is 2m then there is the public pavement, and apart from mowing the grass, nobody touched anything... so as you can imagine, in 2m not much can happen to a copper wire underground.

5) so, from the router to the outside of the house we have 2m of house + 2m of garden more and we are outside of my property. What can happen in 4m of untouchable copper?

router-->25cm cable-->test socket-->2m to home outside wall->2m of garden->road (not mine).

6) The openreach modem I had before the last PS renewal is a bit faster then the Hub One, but in the order of 1mbps. 3 years ago with the same modem I had real 51mbps (I don't remember the sync speed but surely was not less than 56). So changing devices doesn't help at all. In other words, the Hub One is not faulty.

7) Turning off anything in my house, the SNR and speed stays the same. Just to be sure I've turned off the main power switch (entire house without power) using powering the Hub One with a 12v battery. No SNR improvement. This exclude the problem of noise generated from something on the power line. So there is nothing I can do to improve the SNR on my part.

 

So, I can't see how an engineer visit can help. And I was also wondering how the engineer could anyway test the 4m of cable in my property because I can only see 2 points: the master socket and the junction on the outside wall. No the other junction from the wall to the pavement. I could do the same by myself (rules apart that forbid that).

 

Thoughts:

If I'm not entitled to touch the openreach cable after the master socket, right? So the only part in my house I can touch is the 25cm cat 6 cable + the router, nothing else. The router is tested OK. The cable is tested OK. The house noise is tested zero. Remains only the 4m of underground cables (99.99999999999999% ok because it's only copper, not a device).

Question: why I have to pay in case the damage is in the 4m of underground cable in my property (probably installed by Openreach itself) if it's not really mine and I can't test it by myself because defined NOT mine? :tickedoff:

I mean,
- if I pay a taxy and the taxy get a flat tire, I don't have to pay for the flat tire.
- When I pay the TV licence in case the BBC stop working, I can test/repair all my plant by myself (by the way I'm an electronic engineer) and the BBC test and repair their parts at zero cost for me if some repeater doesn't work.

and so on...

On the contrary Openreach has this weird rule: their cables are their properties and they can't be tested by the customer himself. At the same time the customer has to pay for problems of their cable, even if the customer has never touched anything and the cable is not their property.:shocked:

This sounds like: I take a taxy (plusnet contract), the taxy has the spare wheel flat in the boot (the underground cable) and I have to pay for repairing such flat tire despite I've never seen nor touched such tire hidden in the boot of the taxy and despite neither the taxy nor the tire are mine. This is what happen with Openreach!
Any sound of mind people would expect to pay the taxy ride only (the Plusnet monthly bill), not the 65 pound for a faulty service caused  by cables that are not actually owned by the customer.

 

Please let us know if, moving forward, you'd like for us to arrange for the visit.

I've already replied NO 2 times here and in the ticket, because I don't think it's right.

I've already read of many people charged 65 pound, even for 3 times, to then discover that the fault was actually in the street cabinet or at the exchange. Any visit find a new problem that the other engineer didn't see (and actually there wasn't any problem at all). With BT I've also read that the engineer admitted the problem was on the cabinet but they charge more than 100 pounds anyway (many of this cases get a reimbursement though).

I'll solve the problem from the other flip of the coin: I'll go with Talktalk at the end of this month, I'll keep this speed, but with voucher + offer I get this some FTTC speed for only 22 pounds/month that is 11 pound less of what I'm paying now. This way I don't need any visit and the price becomes adequate for the speed I have.

When the p68 cabinet will be expanded (April 2020) to 300mbps I'll upgrade to extra fibre (hoping to get at least 70mbps download and 20 upload).

Plusnet Help Team
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Hi @riccardo2 

 

Ultimately, the decision regarding what is and is not Openreach's Equipment / jurisdiction falls squarely with them, as an ISP we do not have a say in this unfortunately. 

 

In order to book out an engineer we require the statement to be accepted. Without trying to sound too on the nose here, it's the same for all ISPs and all customers - the only difference would be if a fault visit was required which had no need for access to the premise, for example exchange work. 

 

Kind Regards, 

MoR

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 MoR
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dws1900
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

@MasterOfReality 

 

Typically between a telecoms provider and a client, the line of demarcation is at the JOM (Junction of Maintenance), which was the case when I worked with Private Wires and BT

As we are not allowed to go further down the line than the MasterBox, then logically this is the JOM point, please can you confirm this with OpenReach.

riccardo2
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

Ultimately, the decision regarding what is and is not Openreach's Equipment / jurisdiction falls squarely with them, as an ISP we do not have a say in this unfortunately. 

Yes I know.

it's the same for all ISPs and all customers

Unfortunately I know this too.

That's why I think that unless my speed go down to 20mbps I'd better not to accept the visit in order to not help openreach be so abusive.

Should applied the common rule for every product of this earth (openreach apart) that when something is broken has to be repaired by the owner. If the cables are untouchable by the customer because are Openreach property, then Openreach has to pay by themself if such cables have problems, not the customer.

I understand if I have to pay for a broken Hub One because it becomes the customer property (in fact at the end of contract is not to be returned to PS), but the cable after the master socket (and the socket itself) are not mine (in fact I am forbidden to touch them).

I hope Ofcom will intervene on this matter sooner or later because it's ridiculous to pay for their problems.

dws1900
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Re: Costant speed decline because of crosstalk

@riccardo2 

 

Crosstalk is not a new issue with VDSL, see

https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/btwchecker.php

Regrettably the whole  FTTC setup is a mess, cabinets outside the golden 800m point, extra lines connected onto the side of

dslams, poor line maintenance  to name a few.

One could almost think the service was devised by bean counters totally disregarding the engineering advice.