Can full-fibre be installed in a converted loft space?

[#1]

We have signed up to Plusnet and in the process are moving from FTTC to FTTP. Unfortunately, our existing connection won't be able to be upgraded - we had some work done on the house and a BT engineer relocated the main socket on an internal wall, so Openreach won't be able to put the new fibre box in the same location.

The guide we've been sent says they need a double socket next to where the cable will enter. Is this where the hub will be positioned? The only place we have a double socket on an outside wall is in an extension, which won't be a good place at all for placing the hub as it's the far end of the house from most place the internet is consumed. This socket is also used regularly so if we'd lose it altogether that's not really an option.

I was wondering, is it viable to fit this in a converted loft? We are in the process of having ours done, so adding another socket as well as some CAT6 to connect in with an existing network would be fairly easy. It's a bungalow, so height isn't an issue, but they'd still need to come in through the eaves. I've got a location in mind which would be much more central, so better for wifi coverage to the house as a whole, and it would be easier to add a second AP where the current router is for full coverage.

I'm just a bit unsure if they'd accept this sort of install and insist on drilling through a wall to somewhere that isn't really suitable for us.

[#2]

@sghughes42 

Put your number / address in the following.

https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

Below the results window will be a narrative about FTTP and the install. What does this say?

Brian

[#3]

Hi Brian,

  This is the full transcript - not sure what part you need to see?

Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential OH Feed with no anticipated issues.

FTTP is available and a new ONT may be ordered.

The exchange is not in a current fibre priority programme

As a WLR withdrawal exchange, product restrictions apply

SOADSL is not restricted at the exchange

For all ADSL and WBC Fibre to the Cabinet (VDSL or G.fast) services, the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage.

For all SOADSL services,the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage.

Actual speeds experienced by end users and quoted by CPs will be lower due to a number of factors within and external to BT's network, Communication Providers' networks and within customer premises.

In order to be eligible for handback, downstream speed should be less than Downstream Handback Threshold values.

If you decide to place an order for a WBC fibre product, an appointment may be required for an engineer to visit the end user's premises to supply the service

ADSL, ADSL2+ and SOADSL availability: If shown at FTTP or SOGEA premises,ADSL, ADSL2+ and SOADSL are not available to order due to WLR Withdrawal stop sell rules. CPs should order FTTP or SOGEA. Copper products are only available by exception. 

[#4]

@sghughes42 

The key bit is "OH feed with no anticipated issues"

It may well be possible to get the ONT (and the CSP) installed in the loft. However, you won't know the answer until the day of install. Get a good engineer who's willing to work with you and the install is possible then you should be set.

Your starting point is where the current copper cable attaches to the house. You can take a chance and do some preparation work to speed things along. For example,you could pre drill an entry point into the loft near the cable staring point. The ONT needs to be within one meter of a power socket so ensure there is a fixed surface for the fibre cable to attach to. You could lay internal ducts to save stapling the cable to the walls.

The CSP (Custoner Splice Point) is normally located externally near ground level (for the engineer to work on)  but you can get internal installs. When the following picture clears moderation you'll see an example.

The router is connected via ethernet cable so can go anywhere you're happy to run cable. It doesn't have to be near the ONT so only one power socket may be required at that location.

The problem is you can do all the work and the engineer on the day might still say no - you just don't know.

Brian

[#5]

Thanks, yes, the current cabling is overhead from a pole to the house. Where it attaches to the house isn't a viable entry location as it's the outside wall of a bedroom - it currently runs down the wall and along to enter in the hallway. I'm not sure of the bend radius of the fibre they use - been a long time since I worked with silica fibre - so can't tell if they could just follow the same routing.

As for entry in to the loft, it would have to be up in to the eave then out, rather than through a wall, due to the way the roof overhangs. I can see if I can find a path through - worst comes to worst they might be able to follow the gas pipe which also runs up in to the loft.

The main problem we have is that there are no sockets available currently, so we need to get one fitted in a suitable place. I guess ideally we want the engineer to call and discuss the installation, then go away and let us get a socket installed and come back when we are ready, but I don't know how viable that will be.

If they come and can't install there and then, will there be a charge for the repeat visit?

If they won't install in the loft, how 'deep' are the bits they need to fit? We have maybe 100mm beside the door we could use for a socket and their bits, anything deeper would impinge in to the hallway a bit too much.

[#6]

@sghughes42 

All the ‘bits’ that Openreach fit are surface mount, if that’s your question.

Other points:

1. There’s no need to have the ONT, that’s the internal connection box, and the Plusnet Hub 2 in the same location. Providing you use CAT5e or better Ethernet cable they can be up to 100m apart. 
2. There’s no exacting requirements for the ONT supply. I see no reason why you can’t just provide an extension cable to an agreed location on a temporary basis. You can then install a permanent supply at your leisure. Alternatively, though not to be discussed with the installation technician as it could cause confusion, power the ONT from a PoE Injector/Splitter pair from the Hub 2 location.

The trick is to find the easiest solution from installers point of view that is acceptable to you. Some installers are subcontractors working on a piece rate basis. Consequently, they want as quick and easy a job as possible. That and tea and choccy biscuits…..

[#7]

@sghughes42 

Have you actually placed an order for FTTP? if you have this reduces the time you have available to sort things out beforehand though I believe you can rearrange the install to a later date.

As you have an OH feed then you'll be assigned a height qualified engineer. Be advised that due to health and safety rules then need to drill two holes in the wall the attach their ladder.

Is the current cable attached to the "pointy" end of the bungalow or under the sloping roof. Ideally you'd want the cable to go straight up from the attachment point to save the ladder being moved and more holes drilled.

If yoyu can pre-fit a duct through the wall with a draw rope in place this would help. If not used then you'd need to seal it.

I mentioned wall ducting previoulsy. You could buy this but not install until the day. If a route is agreed then it could be fitted while the engineer does the external work. If not used it could be returned.

Could the power be covered by an extension cable in the short term until you get a socket fitted?

There's an ONT shown the the picture I posted.

The loft needs to be easily accessable, be floored and have room to work. You'll need to ensure that any work (including decorating) that might affect the desired route is finished.

Brian

[#8]

Thanks both. To try and cover some of the points:

We have placed an order, the engineer is due on January 6th. I am wondering if a rearrangement might be a good idea - I'll try and get up there tomorrow to take a look what might be possible. As mentioned earlier, if they can't install on the day, would there be a charge? Or would they insist on installing even if not where we want? I really want to avoid cables running across the floor as a permanent solution.

The existing cable is attached to an apex at the front of the bungalow, then runs down to enter by the front door. Since having the loft converted we no longer have access to the space behind this apex - unless Openreach have engineers who do cave exploration in their spare time and can fit through a gap about 200mm high!

Another issue may be that the path infront of the house is only about a foot wide and there is dense planting beside this, so I wonder how they'll get a ladder up there anyway.

If the ONT can be powered via PoE then that would be ideal, providing the installer is happy with a temporary setup to prove it works then I can tidy it up later on. Just to confirm, does the Plusnet hub provide PoE, or do I need a separate injector?

Thanks for all your help with this - there really could do with being a bit more info available from Plusnet and someone at Openreach you can discuss these things with beforehand to avoid unnecessary hassle on the day.

[#9]

@sghughes42 

I have no experience of PoE but I do know the Hub2 does not support it. So it's either a power injector or a new router with PoE. I would still advise using a power lead extension in the first instance until you know for certain where the ONT will be.

Are you saying that the fibre cable would need to go round the outside of the house to get to your preferred entry point? More work for the installer!! At the very least you would need to have a duct in place with a draw rope in place to bring the cable in (less work for the installer!!!) to have any hope of getting the ONT in the loft.

You could get lucky and the installer on the day stating they can't get the ladder up due to the tight space and a cherry picker is required. This would enable you to talk to them to discuss routes. Might only buy you a couple of hours or a couple of days though.

Can't help if there would be a charge for a declined installation. You could try PlusNet Customer Options Team on 0800 013 2632 and see what they say.

Brian

[#10]

Not round the house so much, the front of the bungalow is like this, so the phone cable attaches towards the top of the apex then follows it down and enters by the door. They are going to have to route it around the outside somewhere, as you can't get in to the area behind the apex as it's been boarded over during the loft conversion.

[#11]

@sghughes42 

That doesn't look too bad though the position of the window will probably cause problems with securing the ladder to the wall.

The current cable is well hidden - I cannot see it unless it attaches at the very top with the cable coming in from the right.

There appears to be two options. The first is the fibre follows the route of the existing cable and comes in beside the door. Your problem is then running ethernet cable to this location though with PoE that covers the power requirement. Cover it in the short term with an extension cable.

The second optrion is in through the eves to the loft (to the right or left?). I would suspect this would not be acceptable unless you have got a duct (with draw rope) in place to bring the cable in to save time. Cover the power with an extension short term and you might be in business. If any internal ducting is required then you should have this to hand to fit once the route is agreed.

You just don't know until the day.

Brian

[#12]

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@sghughes42 wrote:

..........If the ONT can be powered via PoE then that would be ideal, providing the installer is happy with a temporary setup to prove it works then I can tidy it up later on. Just to confirm, does the Plusnet hub provide PoE, or do I need a separate injector?

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Just to prove the point I currently have my Full Fibre connection running with the ONT powered via approximately 25/30m of a mixture of CAT 5e and Cat 6 Ethernet cable (there is a joint box in the loft).

I am using a Tp-Link PoE150S Injector at the Router end injecting a dc voltage to the Ethernet WAN cable and a Tp-Link PoE 10R Splitter at the ONT end. This is set to 12V and is providing both power to the ONT and carrying WAN data. The link is syncing at 1Gbps, there is no discernable performance difference.   

The Plusnet hub does not have any PoE capability. This arrangement should NOT be confused with PoE routers. These are designed  to run off a PoE voltage injected into the router from elsewhere, Here we are injecting the PoE voltage at the router end, not receiving it. 

[#13]

Ah, right, I think I understand now. The ONT itself isn't PoE, but is low enough power that with the addition of a splitter it can be powered that way.

I'd originally assumed the ONT could tap power directly, a bit like a VoiP desk phone does. A shame in a way it can't, that would make it even simpler to connect in.

One quick other question, am I right to assume the fibre runs all the way to the ONT? And if so, what diameter and bend radius will they be working with to provide a suitable route?

[#14]

So, a quick update on this.

The answer to my question is no. Fibre can't be installed in a loft, because it isn't possible to drill through the wall from the outside, it's only possible from the inside, and as you can't get close enough to the wall to drill from the inside there is no way to do it.

And to answer a follow-up question, no, you can't reject the installation if there isn't a suitable alternative. I was told either I choose where to have it installed or he'd install it where he thought best.

Therefore, I've now got working fibre to about half my devices, but with no way to run an ethernet cable to connect the router to my existing wired network, making a number of devices now useless.

Also - did you know that upgrading from ADSL to fibre increases your WiFi range? Apparently it's nothing to do with the performance of the router or any obstacles, no, according to the engineer having a faster incoming signal means better wireless range. If only I'd known that earlier I could have skipped a chunk of my degree and not wasted time optimising antenna placement on various embedded systems I've designed over the years...

[#15]

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@sghughes42 wrote:

So, a quick update on this.

The answer to my question is no. Fibre can't be installed in a loft, because it isn't possible to drill through the wall from the outside, it's only possible from the inside, and as you can't get close enough to the wall to drill from the inside there is no way to do it.

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@sghughes42 

I disagree.

There have been instances reported on the forum of FTTP being installed in lofts.

My FTTP cable enters under the eaves and through the loft via a flexible conduit I fitted prior to installation day.

It is possible to drill through the wall from the outside, particularly if you drill it yourself.