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autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

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Rising Star
Posts: 188
Thanks: 37
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: cockleybarn
I understand that there is a POSSIBILITY of missed (bounced?) emails in the event that a power outage or lost ADSL conection occurrs. Unfortunately, in a rural location, that possibility is quite real - if not frequent.
...
So - it looks as if I shall be leaving Plusnet.  Angry

You don't need to leave Plusnet over it.
Firstly, unless you have expectations of being down for days at a time, then it shouldn't be an issue. Even if you are, there won't be "lost" mail, it will bounce - IMO this is far less of a problem than all those spam filters that will be throwing your mail away.
Secondly, don't forget that these are separate services. You don't need to get everything from one shop - even though some (other) ISPs would have their customers believe otherwise. You can keep Plusnet for connectivity, and go elsewhere for your SMTP relay if you wish - but make that decision based on whether you are happy with the connectivity rather than what is bundled.
Quote from: dratdestroyer
What's wrong with using a mail retrieval agent?

Apart from the fact that you lose all the envelope information ?
That's a serious issue - once the mail drops into a mailbox then you lose the envelope so you then have absolutely no idea what address(es) it was sent to (as opposed to what addresses are in the to and cc fields of the message body.
That alone should be enough to rule out using POP when SMTP is available.
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Grafter
Posts: 164
Registered: ‎27-09-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Two things I can think of.
1. I use a UPS to maintain power for my box and ADSL modem. £50 second hand on flea bay and £60 for the batteries every three years. Worth every penny for peace of mind.
2. I use fetchmail to suck emails per mailbox. So Fred only gets Freds mail. So if Fred is bcc'd in a message to Wilma he still gets the mail.
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Rising Star
Posts: 188
Thanks: 37
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: dratdestroyer
I use fetchmail to suck emails per mailbox. So Fred only gets Freds mail. So if Fred is bcc'd in a message to Wilma he still gets the mail.

Yes, that works - but it means you have to maintain two sets of mail accounts in sync. Dunno about you, but at work some of our guys don't seem capable of making simple changes in two places without cocking it up on a regular basis Angry
Also, if someone sends a 25M email to ten people - that splits up into 250M of emails. Granted that's barely an issue for most people these days, unlike when I used to watch the queue build up at work when I only had a single 64k ISDN channel Roll_eyes
But for me the biggest issue is that there can be no feedback to the sender if you aren't getting your mail. It goes straight in a mailbox and that's it - so the sender will never get a bounce (couldn't be delivered at all) or a delay notice.
But in reality - either method works, it's a matter of preference and what tools you have available. At work we have customers setup with POP connectors because the previous mail server couldn't store & forward via SMTP - it's been 5 years now and I still haven't managed to wean some of them off the habit.
Newbie
Posts: 2
Registered: ‎20-09-2011

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

While I am not very happy about this happening,  I just need to know how to sort it out.

My last mx record reads

blank    MX    20  mx.last.plus.net
I  assume that if for example I purchase a backup  mx service from qbic or Frombroz magic well company at 40,00000 Zorkmids per year,  I need to change my entry to something like
blank  MX  20 foo.bar.belch.net
Where foo.bar.belch.net is the mx service provided by my new supplier ?
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Community Gaffer
Community Gaffer
Posts: 14,172
Thanks: 1,762
Fixes: 136
Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: DavePotts
I  assume that if for example I purchase a backup  mx service from qbic or Frombroz magic well company at 40,00000 Zorkmids per year,  I need to change my entry to something like
blank  MX  20 foo.bar.belch.net
Where foo.bar.belch.net is the mx service provided by my new supplier ?

Use:
blank     MX     15     foo.bar.belch.net.

This creates a higher priority MX record than the existing mx.last.plus.net (i.e. it will always be tried first). Note the qualifying '.' at the end of the right hand field.
This way you can leave the MX 20 record where it is and we'll simply delete it when the time arises.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

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Newbie
Posts: 2
Registered: ‎26-08-2008

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Has anyone got any feedback on the alternative options that Bob listed in his original email? (or suggest better options that have actually been tried and tested with Plusnet)
I have a number of customers who DO want a backup option, (running various flavours of SBS) and would appreciate some feedback on the options available before trying one!
I was hoping that by now there would have been some feedback from people who have made the switch to an alternative.  Smiley
Bob, might I suggest that it would actually be appreciated if you had a list of tried and tested alternatives? I am not suggesting that they would be official Plus net recommendations, but it would be good to know that everything will work correctly if you choose a certain option. (Maybe with a short guide for what the enduser has to do to set things up.) Similar to hardware compatability lists. This would make things very quick and simple for those people who do feel that a backup option fits their needs.
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Community Gaffer
Community Gaffer
Posts: 14,172
Thanks: 1,762
Fixes: 136
Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: markberrill
Bob, might I suggest that it would actually be appreciated if you had a list of tried and tested alternatives?

I would had provided this had I actually tried/tested any! There's no reason for a back-up MX service not to work unless your mail server is configured to reject/refuse messages from the provider in question.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

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Community Gaffer
Community Gaffer
Posts: 14,172
Thanks: 1,762
Fixes: 136
Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Heads up folks that the actual work to decommission Autoturn/mx.last starts tomorrow morning.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

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Community Veteran
Posts: 26,786
Thanks: 987
Fixes: 10
Registered: ‎10-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: jelv
Also: when you turn it off will you be fingering all accounts to make sure that all email held on autoturn is delivered?

Bob, I don't think you ever answered this question.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
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Community Gaffer
Community Gaffer
Posts: 14,172
Thanks: 1,762
Fixes: 136
Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

I've requested this is done on the Change Control for the work.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

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Grafter
Posts: 5,924
Thanks: 2
Registered: ‎07-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Did I again miss the answer to this? Without knowing how often and duration the smtp servers try to deliver how one is expected to weigh up the impact on this?

Quote from: Bob
Quote from: itsme
Quote from: itsme
As this thread is about turning off Autoturn perhaps Bob can inform us how often and how long PN SMTP severs will try to deliver emails.

Did I miss the answer to my question above?

Been struggling to get a definitive answer to this one if I'm honest. Mainly because it's primarily governed by the IronPort anti-spam appliances (rather than us directly).
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Grafter
Posts: 145
Thanks: 1
Registered: ‎12-06-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: Bob

Quote from: dusty_bin
3. If this extremely unwelcome action goes ahead, would one solution be that I could I use the PN email MX entries and just preceed them with the MX entry for mail.myhosteddomain?

Interesting question, and one I'll have to get clarification on. My instinct is that our servers won't relay any mail as your domain/mailboxes won't have LDAP entries.

I don't think this was ever answered?  My point was: whether we could have mail delivered by SMTP when myserver is online but, in the event that it is offline, then it would go to the POP3 mailbox.
That way, 99% of the mail will be delivered normally, and any other stuff could be recovered from Plusnet POP3 mailbox?
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Rising Star
Posts: 188
Thanks: 37
Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

If you have more than one MX record, then you cannot assume that all mail will be delivered to the higher priority one. IIRC some aspects of the RFCs are a little unclear as to how 'backup' MX records should be handled and there is some variation in implementation.
So potentially, it might only need a transient error (a few packets get dropped, your ADSL 'drops' and resyncs, etc, etc) for a delivery attempt to your primary to fail. Some systems will retry the primary a few times before trying a lower priority MX, others will simply move on to the next MX and try that. Spammers will routinely use the lower priority MXs because they are often less well protected relays.
Of course, if you use the very powerful greylisting anti-spam technique, then most initial delivery attempts will "fail" and a lot of your mail will then be delivered to a backup MX.
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Community Gaffer
Community Gaffer
Posts: 14,172
Thanks: 1,762
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Registered: ‎04-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: itsme
Quote from: Bob
Quote from: itsme
Quote from: itsme
As this thread is about turning off Autoturn perhaps Bob can inform us how often and how long PN SMTP severs will try to deliver emails.

Did I miss the answer to my question above?

Been struggling to get a definitive answer to this one if I'm honest. Mainly because it's primarily governed by the IronPort anti-spam appliances (rather than us directly).

Did I again miss the answer to this? Without knowing how often and duration the smtp servers try to deliver how one is expected to weigh up the impact on this?

No, I answered as you've quoted above. The inbound servers only really defer messages to a mailbox that's over quota. This doesn't apply to Plusnet customers though, only some of of the smaller brands we look after. Plusnet mail that you'd expect to be deferred is sent over to the outbound IronPort appliances so retry/expiry limits are governed by them/Cisco. Rest assured the email will be deferred for more than an adequate period of time to allow for delivery, even if I can't be specific.
Our retry limits have nothing to do with this work though unless a Plusnet customer sends an email to another Plusnet customer who has their email configured to point directly at their own SMTP server. In all other instances, it will be a non-Plusnet mail server that will be responsible for deferring the message (or not as the case may be in rare circumstances).
Worth bearing in mind I guess is the fact that we're also in the process of migrating from IronPort to Cloudmark over the coming weeks.
Quote from: dusty_bin
Quote from: Bob

Quote from: dusty_bin
3. If this extremely unwelcome action goes ahead, would one solution be that I could I use the PN email MX entries and just preceed them with the MX entry for mail.myhosteddomain?

Interesting question, and one I'll have to get clarification on. My instinct is that our servers won't relay any mail as your domain/mailboxes won't have LDAP entries.

I don't think this was ever answered?  My point was: whether we could have mail delivered by SMTP when myserver is online but, in the event that it is offline, then it would go to the POP3 mailbox.
That way, 99% of the mail will be delivered normally, and any other stuff could be recovered from Plusnet POP3 mailbox?

Won't work. There was a question as to whether or not the delivery servers would still accept mail and then relay it to your domain but it looks like that won't work either because I've just tried:
220 mx.ptn-ipin04.plus.net ESMTP
ehlo port
250-mx.ptn-ipin04.plus.net
250-8BITMIME
250 SIZE 104857600
mail from:<me@privacy.net>
250 sender <me@privacy.net> ok
rcpt to:<postmaster@*****.co.uk>
550 #5.1.0 Address rejected postmaster@*****.co.uk

220 mx.core.plus.net ESMTP Exim Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:50:23 +0100
ehlo core
250-inmx03.plus.net Hello core [84.93.217.165]
250-SIZE 104857600
250-8BITMIME
250-PIPELINING
250 HELP
mail from:<me@privacy.net>
250 OK
rcpt to:<postmaster@*****.co.uk>
Connection closed by foreign host.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

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Grafter
Posts: 145
Thanks: 1
Registered: ‎12-06-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

OK, - just got back from 10 days holiday...
Received: from relay.ptn-ipout01.plus.net (relay.ptn-ipout01.plus.net [212.159.7.35])
         by mymailserver.org.uk with ESMTP (Mailtraq/2.12.2.2372) id HPPYF3F00EAC
         for geoff@mydomain.org.uk; Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:49:51 -0000
Message-Id: <5ffe2f$905ggi@ptn-ipout01.plus.net>
Received: from localhost by relay.ptn-ipout01.plus.net;
 13 Oct 2011 02:56:07 +0100
Date: 13 Oct 2011 02:56:17 +0100
To: geoff@mydomain.org.uk
From: "Mail Delivery System" <MAILER-DAEMON@ptn-ipout01.plus.net>
Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="Hz+te.4hoHoFVdS.rpo0D.6jDA7rN"
X-PMFLAGS: 570966144 0 65537 3A4DE728.CNM                  
--Hz+te.4hoHoFVdS.rpo0D.6jDA7rN
content-type: text/plain;
   charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The following message to <geoff@mydomain.org.uk> was undeliverable.
The reason for the problem:
5.4.7 - Delivery expired (message too old) 'timeout'
--Hz+te.4hoHoFVdS.rpo0D.6jDA7rN
content-type: message/delivery-status
Reporting-MTA: dns; ptn-ipout01.plus.net
Final-Recipient: rfc822;geoff@mydomain.org.uk
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure)
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.4.7 - Delivery expired (message too old) 'timeout' (delivery attempts: 0)
--Hz+te.4hoHoFVdS.rpo0D.6jDA7rN
content-type: message/rfc822
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApgMAH1Ckk7Unw4U/2dsb2JhbABDgmeWSgEBjGWCAYEFg0SIYJdljjWQGIdDBJkgjCg
Received: from outmx08.plus.net ([212.159.14.20])
 by relay.ptn-ipout01.plus.net with ESMTP; 10 Oct 2011 02:00:02 +0100
Received: from [myIP] (helo=unknown)
by outmx08.plus.net with smtp (Exim) id 1RD4Dp-0002AD-L9
for geoff@mydomain.org.uk; Mon, 10 Oct 2011 02:00:01 +0100
Date: Mon,10 Oct 2011 01:00:01 -0000
[...]

Just one example of emailed logs from my router - so looks like I'll finally have to do something Sad