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Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

paulh
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

As you no doubt realise, jelv, my critical tone was aimed at your comments, which I understood to be implying that both PaulBG and myself could only expect such problems if we chose to leave messages on the server for longer than some (unspecified) time.
The relevant RFC (RFC1939) notes explicitly that the design of this protocol leaves users (and the designers of clients) at liberty to use the server as a repository for messages in the way that PaulBG and myself (and, no doubt, thousands if not millions of others users of POP3 services worldwide).  The proposed remedies for this (if it is seen as problematic) are policies for retention enforced by the server owner.
In the case of PN, it does not appear that any such policies are made explicit, less still enforced and they appear to recognise that users will store messages in this way.
Accordingly, it is not unreasonable to expect (as an end user) that one will not be put to trouble by a problem such as that PaulBG and myself have experienced. In his case, it is significantly troublesome I expect (I certainly wouldn't want my 'phone to suddenly receive ~800 duplicate messages).
To say "you shouldn't be using it like that" is rather like going back to the shop with a pair of shoes that leak, only to have the proprietor say "You've been walking around in these haven't you?" ...
As things stand, I'm happy that Bob Pullen (as so often) has stepped in and straightforwardly said "It's a fault at our end, and we'll try and find out what's wrong and fix it".
jelv
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

I'm not denying that something has happened somewhere between you and the Plusnet end, but the unfortunate consequence is that it has confused Outlook in to forgetting which emails it has already downloaded.
I had a glitch with one of my IMAP mailboxes during the problem. Closed and reopened Thunderbird and it sorted itself out - I'm pretty sure that if I had been using IMAP in Outlook it would have been the same.
Try an experiment: load up a mailbox with a lot of emails, then kill Outlook or the connection when it is half way through downloading. When you restart Outlook and try again all the messages it had downloaded the first time will be duplicated. Repeat that experiment using IMAP and you won't see any duplicates.
POP3 is the far simpler protocol, and with that simplicity there are consequences: duplicate emails following problems is the most significant. Choosing how long you leave messages on the sever when using POP3 is a balance between how long you'd like them backed up and how many you might get duplicated if a problem occurs.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
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jelv
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

Quote from: Simon
Presumably the provider of the IMAP server puts a limit on the amount of space allocated to each account. Your total mail store is thus constrained by this limit.

1GB in Plusnet's case - this cropped up recently when someone went over and had his emails deleted while he was away and unaware of the warnings.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
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paulh
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

I'm not using Outlook
jelv
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

OK, but all mail clients using POP3 are susceptible to the same problem, if something happens to mess up their record of what they have downloaded you get duplicates. It's a consequence of the way it works.
In fact for the fail half way through issue you don't have to be using the option to leave the mail on the server (not positive that applies to all clients as they could update and delete after each email, but they don't tend to do that as it is less efficient than getting a list of all the emails, get them all, delete them all).
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
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paulBG
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

Bob - to help withyour troubleshooting (sorry, didn't realise you were PlusNet staff earlier) I have my POP3 settings in Outlook to delete from the server after 30 days. The 800 emails were my 30 days worth I believe as deletion does work normally. It was only Outlook that downloaded duplicates this time whereas last time my phone started downloading duplicates simultaneously. It may simply be that my phone didn't connect for up to 5 mins and Outlook beat it to it and marked the emails as read again,  however that works - I don't claim to understand POP3 technicalities.
Although there is a suggestion above that POP3 can be flakey with lost connections etc., in three years with the same configuration using Outlook and PlusNet, this has only happened twice as I've reported on here.
Cheers
Paul
jelv
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

POP3 does not mark the emails as read on the server. It is the sole responsibility of the email client to keep track of which emails have been read. IMAP on the other hand does have that capability. Mark an email as read on one client and it will appear as read on all clients.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
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mkstevo
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

My entire pop3 mailbox is now in the process of being downloaded. All 4000+ emails are making their way (in fits and starts) to my mail client.
In case anyone is interested, I'm using Apple Mail.
I'd best check my Mobile email account. Don't want them all going to my 'phone via 3g... I can't afford the data charges!
LynnB
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Registered: ‎01-06-2010

Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

Glad I've found this thread.
I've just found that my entire pop3 mailbox has been downloaded for the third or fourth time in the last few days.  Fortunately I don't use PlusNet as my main email provider so the mailbox only contained about 60 emails from PlusNet, but it's still a pain & I'd like to know why it's happening.
By the way I'm also using Apple Mail.
paulBG
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

And now for something completely different....
I was just reading emails on my phone, went to make a cuppa, then all the emails had gone. Everything has been wiped and nothing is being picked up. I checked Squirrel mail - and again I see nothing - just  " ERROR: Connection dropped by IMAP server." Interestingly though both Outlook and Gmail are still picking up new emails since the phone lost everything and stopped working.
Help please!
Paul
bobpullen
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

Paul, last week's problem has resurfaced Sad
Quote from: paulh
As things stand, I'm happy that Bob Pullen (as so often) has stepped in and straightforwardly said "It's a fault at our end, and we'll try and find out what's wrong and fix it".

If I'm honest, we're struggling a little to work out what caused certain customer's POP3 mail to be downloaded again Huh
We checked the UDILs in the cache file and the base numbers hadn't changed. As I mentioned last week, this particular aspect of the problem seems to have been limited to one particular storage filer. I just hope it doesn't happen again following this morning's issues.
Quote from: jelv
Quote from: Simon
Presumably the provider of the IMAP server puts a limit on the amount of space allocated to each account. Your total mail store is thus constrained by this limit.

1GB in Plusnet's case - this cropped up recently when someone went over and had his emails deleted while he was away and unaware of the warnings.

I think it was closer to 600MB wasn't it?

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
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jelv
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

It better not be 600MB or Plusnet will be in breach of the Acceptable use policy!
[quote=http://www.plus.net/info2/legal/aup.html]8.1.3 If you exceed a total of 1GB (Gigabytes) of email on our servers for more than a 30 day period it will be removed without notice to you.
The way it is linked forms part of the contact, if you delete emails for someone over 600MB but under 1GB they would be entitled to recompense!
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
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bobpullen
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

Quote from: Bob
If I'm honest, we're struggling a little to work out what caused certain customer's POP3 mail to be downloaded again Huh
We checked the UDILs in the cache file and the base numbers hadn't changed. As I mentioned last week, this particular aspect of the problem seems to have been limited to one particular storage filer. I just hope it doesn't happen again following this morning's issues.

I've seen examples where it has happened again Sad
Quote from: jelv
It better not be 600MB or Plusnet will be in breach of the Acceptable use policy!

This was discussed over here. I don't think we're running the scripts at all at the moment until we've had time to revisit the process.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
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bobpullen
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

Quote from: Bob
Paul, last week's problem has resurfaced Sad

As per the Service Status thread, the problem's been resolved for the time being.
We think that this bug might be contributing to the problem. The new storage platform is running NFSv4, whereas the old one used NFSv3. A change control has been raised to patch all of our linux-based mail collection/delivery servers.
I'll post a planned maintenance announcement once the change control's been approved...

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
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paulBG
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Re: Entire mailbox contents duplicated via POP3 07/01/2011

Thanks, Bob. Meanwhile it's just happened again so I'm backing up now and will try IMAP.
Cheers
Paul