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Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

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Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

When I first joined F9 most of the posts seemed to be about what a good ISP it was and how happy people were. I along with many other I suspect use to sing their phrases to everyone I met.

Now most of the posts concern how unhappy everyone is with the sudden reversals in T&Cs the antagonistic attitue F9 is taking to it's customer base. It's obvious where this will all end. Problem is I rather liked the old F9. Is anybody (moderator?) feeding back the bean counters how they are getting deeper and deeper into this mess?
16 REPLIES
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Replying on QOS, Ivan

Hello vetterlein,

I tend to agree strongly with your sentiments and I'm a Moderator but I'm also a customer/user too. Frankly, I dont like whats being done to the service by Plusnet F9 either, I dont agree with it myself. And I think the idel timeout issue is a complete certainty to both alienate and antagonise customers I just wish Plusnet F9 wouldnt do things like this. I just dont understand who dreampt this one up? but I know one thing its a VERY BAD idea and I doubte it will have the desired effect. sometimes when making a change to one aspect of a system it can have a very large negative knock on effect else where.

**I think its yet another attampt to micro-manage the network with extremely negative (politely put) side effects. I doubte this stratergy has been fully thought through as seems to be the case. Perhaps more knee jerk than considered planning.

**So far my service F9 Broadband Premier 2MB's hasnt been adversely effected but if it ever did come to that, then I too would have to reconsider being a customer like many other users. I sincerely hope it never comes to that though.

**Personally I'd STRONGLY URGE PlusNet F9 to seriously reconsider this issue of idel time outs and change the T&C back too how it was before.

Ivan
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 12,169
Thanks: 18
Fixes: 1
Registered: 04-04-2007

Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

Hi,

The reason for the introduction of idle timeouts is due to fact that each central pipe has a limited number of sessions, i.e. there is a limit to the number of customers that can connect at the same time.

At the moment we haven't implemented idle timeouts because there hasn't been the need to do so, we've still got plenty of spare sessions. However the changes to the T's & C's means that should we get to the point were the session limit is reached we can disconnect those customers just on Broadband Plus and Home Surf whose connections aren't being used so that other customers can connect. Of course customers can immediately reconnect should they so wish and no customer other than Broadband Plus or Home Surf would be affected and even for these customers it only affects those whose connections have been idle for 30 minutes.

Your connection is still "always on" in the same sense that your water is "always on". When you go out of your house you don't leave your taps running just because you can.
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Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

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...should we get to the point were the session limit is reached we can disconnect those customers just on Broadband Plus and Home Surf whose connections aren't being used so that other customers can connect. Of course customers can immediately reconnect should they so wish...


But if you get to the point where you've taken on too many customers and you have to implement the idle time-out then customers who have been disconnected wouldn't necessarily be able to reconnect immediately as there might not be any free sessions. If there was going to be plenty of free sessions then you wouldn't need to implement the idle time-outs in the first place. The whole idea just doesn't make sense, not least because of all the negative feedback it is causing.

It seems that the whole time-out idea is poorly thought-out and whoever is making these ridiculous decisions isn't now prepared to accept that it's not the solution to your problems. The F9 staff on the forum meanwhile dig deeper...
Frogger
Grafter
Posts: 113
Registered: 19-09-2007

Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

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The reason for the introduction of idle timeouts is due to fact that each central pipe has a limited number of sessions, i.e. there is a limit to the number of customers that can connect at the same time

This seems to contradict the comment from Bob Pullen (also F9 Comms) in thread http://portal.f9.net.uk/central/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5635
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We are not running out of sessions and do not intend on applying this to any other accounts.

I also am getting a little concerned about the direction that Force9 are heading with relation to diminishing respect for paying customers. I understand about controlling misuse of bandwidth, but to change the definition of Broadband to "not always on" seems a step to far for the BB+ users. Not all routers will reconnect on demand.

Colin Dowse
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Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

I was one of those user singing f9's/pn's praises. Operative word there being 'was'.

Made my thoughts clear in previous threads, not going to go on about *that* again, but the idle timeouts is obviously so they can have more users subscribed on the network than the network can support at once, hence the removal of the 'always on'.

Starting to think that AOL bband (you dont need to use their software to get on the service) would be better. Note that I'm currently not using much bandwidth, so its definitely not for the 'unlimited' offer, but its nice to know.

My trust in this ISP has gone from complete to none since the start of this year. Its very sad, and I have no doubt that its because they are now a PLC.
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Idle time outs yet again Ivan

Hello Again Dave,

I know you have given all the rational reasons for the idle time outs, and it all sounds very logical but I still cannot agree with you or Plusnet on this issue. I think I'm going to have to agree too disagree with you on this one. As I said before this ISNT IMO the way to manage your pipes or bandwidth or sessions. Anyway, your anticipating an event or situation that hasnt happened yet as far as I can see.

**Other forum contributors in this thread have indeed made very clear their feelings too & also made some very relevant points on the same issue.

**I think you can dress it up as much as you want to in nice words but at the end of the day idle time outs disconnect's users, & this in itself DOES change the nature of the product from "always on" to "NOT always on". And the fact that you may or may not be able to reconnect isnt the issue here.

**OK using the water analogue then its like having your mains water switched off without being asked, why? Oh! because we see you havent used your taps recently so we thought we would turn your supply off to reduce the leaks WE have as a supplier in our distribution system i.e. water pipes (all those leaking gallons dont you know!!). Why? should I have to turn my mains supply back on at the master valve each time I go away for the day or weekend? Becuase the supplier cannot guarentee the mains water pressure due to leakage,etc,etc. you get my drift I think (YES! perhaps people at PN & F9 need to try and look at this from the customers point of view for a change if that's at all humanly possible?


Users are going to feel very annoyed, upset & angry if they are paying for a second rate service (its a very emotive way to treat users) and I think as you will see already its going down like the titanic after it hit the ice berg. I still think you need to look at this issue in a different way even if that means changing your policy or pipe management plans.

**There must be a better way to manage the network than this, idle time outs will definately have a negative impact if you implemented it, it feels like stepping back in time to old dialup days if PN do this, frankly it feels weird to me (so called always on that then gets disconnected then I have to redial to reconnect!! DurrrrHuh come on PN must be able to find another than this?

Ivan
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F9 FOL Forum Moderator
F9 Broadband Premier 2MB User
The True power of knowledge is when its shared.
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Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

Absolutely Ivan and nice to see that being a moderator doesn't automatically make you a poodle Cheesy

See also all the continuing problems with ccgi and the database and it seems that F9's customer-orientated service is becoming a thing of the past. I have hosted my latest couple of websites on UK2 and their service is chalk compared to stale cheese.
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More on Idle time outs IVan

Hi,

NOP!! definately AINT NO! dog lover!! I have my own opinions even though I am a moderator and if I think Plusnet, F9 or FOL are off beam then I have no quarms about saying so and will continue too do so. As I am also a customer too.

**Idle time outs & automatic disconnects this is an utter non sense and the quickest way to shoot yourself in the foot as an ISP. If implemented just watch customers leave in droves IMO WOOF WOOF!! :lol:

Ivan
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 12,169
Thanks: 18
Fixes: 1
Registered: 04-04-2007

Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

Quote
Quote
The reason for the introduction of idle timeouts is due to fact that each central pipe has a limited number of sessions, i.e. there is a limit to the number of customers that can connect at the same time

This seems to contradict the comment from Bob Pullen (also F9 Comms) in thread http://portal.f9.net.uk/central/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5635
Quote
We are not running out of sessions and do not intend on applying this to any other accounts.

I also am getting a little concerned about the direction that Force9 are heading with relation to diminishing respect for paying customers. I understand about controlling misuse of bandwidth, but to change the definition of Broadband to "not always on" seems a step to far for the BB+ users. Not all routers will reconnect on demand.

Colin Dowse


We aren't running out of sessions and have plenty of spare available, in fact we have at the present time more sessions than customers.

We also know that not every customer will be connected at the same time, normally there are several 10's of thousands who aren't online.

This gives us a big comfort factor, and it is highly unlikely that we'd run out of sessions, however there is still a slim chance of it happening, in particular in a worst case scenario position of a major service outage on one or more of our central pipes.

By introducing the ability to use idle timeouts we are reducing what was a microscopic chance of being short of sessions to one of a zero chance of running out of sessions.

BT Wholesale also had a project called BT Central Extra which would have increased the maximum session limit on a Central Pipe. BT put this project on-hold a while ago, but discussions are ongoing to see if they will resurrect it.
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 12,169
Thanks: 18
Fixes: 1
Registered: 04-04-2007

Re: Idle time outs yet again Ivan

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**I think you can dress it up as much as you want to in nice words but at the end of the day idle time outs disconnect's users, & this in itself DOES change the nature of the product from "always on" to "NOT always on".


Agreed, hence why this needed a change to the T's & C's and why Broadband Plus won't be sold as always on.


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**OK using the water analogue then its like having your mains water switched off without being asked, why? Oh! because we see you havent used your taps recently so we thought we would turn your supply off to reduce the leaks WE have as a supplier in our distribution system i.e. water pipes (all those leaking gallons dont you know!!). Why? should I have to turn my mains supply back on at the master valve each time I go away for the day or weekend? Becuase the supplier cannot guarentee the mains water pressure due to leakage,etc,etc. you get my drift I think (YES! perhaps people at PN & F9 need to try and look at this from the customers point of view for a change if that's at all humanly possible?


The water analogy uses your tap as the connect/disconnect button on your modem. Your ADSL is still synced the whole time, it's only the PPP session that is being disconnected. The water is still connected to your house even if your taps are all off.

Imagine this then. If you have a shower you are using your water and you wouldn't expect the water to just stop, whether you had a quick 5 minutes or an hour, you'd expect the water to continue flowing, but you'd turn the water off when you get out, you wouldn't leave it running just because you can.

That's what an idle timeout would do, it would turn the water off in the shower should you leave it running 30 minutes after you stopped using it.
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Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

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We aren't running out of sessions and have plenty of spare available, in fact we have at the present time more sessions than customers.

Did you last month before having to activate your 5th central?

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This gives us a big comfort factor, and it is highly unlikely that we'd run out of sessions, however there is still a slim chance of it happening, in particular in a worst case scenario position of a major service outage on one or more of our central pipes.

If you have more sessoins than customers then why not just implement the idle disconnections for all residential customers if there was a major service outage - that is quite fair imho.

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By introducing the ability to use idle timeouts we are reducing what was a microscopic chance of being short of sessions to one of a zero chance of running out of sessions.

If it is that miniscule then why are you annoyong all of your customers over it? That doesnt make sense.

Not having a go at you personally, Dave :?

Dan
Plusnet Staff
Plusnet Staff
Posts: 12,169
Thanks: 18
Fixes: 1
Registered: 04-04-2007

Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

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Absolutely Ivan and nice to see that being a moderator doesn't automatically make you a poodle Cheesy


I would hope so, and glad that it doesn't.

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See also all the continuing problems with ccgi and the database and it seems that F9's customer-orientated service is becoming a thing of the past. I have hosted my latest couple of websites on UK2 and their service is chalk compared to stale cheese.


I don't if you've seen it but we have a maintenance slot planned for Tuesday morning to upgrade the OS on Rumpus would should hopefully resolve the performance issues. So long as it is successful a second slot will be scheduled for Humbug.
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Notice how angry F9 custoers are getting?

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I don't if you've seen it but we have a maintenance slot planned for Tuesday morning to upgrade the OS on Rumpus would should hopefully resolve the performance issues. So long as it is successful a second slot will be scheduled for Humbug.


I hadn't seen it Dave but thanks for pointing it out Smiley . I's a bit annoying though that the service status is showing all greens when clearly there's a problem of some sort for best part of a week now.

This is the same sort of nonsense as the claimed 'contact us' response time which is boosted by customer service reps returning 'holding' messages without any actual action being taken. I have a ticket in the system just now which is suffering from this game.
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Idle Time outs again Ivan

Hi Dave,

YEP! I totally agree with the points "Dan" made above if F9 PN have enough capacity across ALL central pipes, and IF you have comfortable session capacity then this idle time out business appears to make even less sense than it did before.

**Look I can understand PlusNet F9 making a clause in the T&C's which says to all BB users. In the unliklely event of a major service outage either on our own central pipes/network or else where such as BT's pipes/network we reserve the right to temporarily disconnect any users not actively using their connections inorder to better manage our resources in that specific situation.OK I think that would be fair enough and I think most users would be happy to accept but I think the way that PN F9 have gone about implementing this policy is aweful & I dont like it or agree with the way its being done to customers even though it doesnt directly affect the product I'm on currently.

Ivan